Thoughts since leaving....

Just terrible- ME XC time with actual and some night xc. Poor things!

I am sure ATP could arrange it to have them go to the locations of their choice so long as the price went up to cover the need of all of the extra PA44's to cover the training issues and shortages brought on by flying where they want instead of getting the most out of the resources at hand.

No real disrespect meant, there is just a lot more that must go into such a large operation than everyone getting what they want. They paid for ME XC and that is what went into the log book.
 
checksix said:
Just terrible- ME XC time with actual and some night xc. Poor things!

I am sure ATP could arrange it to have them go to the locations of their choice so long as the price went up to cover the need of all of the extra PA44's to cover the training issues and shortages brought on by flying where they want instead of getting the most out of the resources at hand.

No real disrespect meant, there is just a lot more that must go into such a large operation than everyone getting what they want. They paid for ME XC and that is what went into the log book.
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Take this as you wish.... However when you pay for ME xc you arent thinking mx flights from DAB-JAX.... I am sure many thought about that. Yes some people get great xc's however perhaps it was just DAB location and it stunk for those who paid big money to enjoy xc's but a lot of students got the shaft in this regards... Again as to your arrange locations they will try one if you are lucky but that doesnt help much when you get maybe 5-6 hours to a good location and 60 1 hour trips.... However you are right when you pay for a large operatoin you should not worry about giving the "customers" what they want... I am wrong to assume such...
 
As Paul said the mx xc were really bad. But if you refused to fly them you were threatened of being thrown out. Out of Daytona the farthest I went was ric. The rest of my xcs were exactly as he said. I wasn't really expecting it to be that way but I got it done. Not on time, by the way. Not many people that i talked to either.

I think you were the first person to give me some sort of ground school on your first day in DAB there Paul.
 
robs01 said:
As Paul said the mx xc were really bad. But if you refused to fly them you were threatened of being thrown out. Out of Daytona the farthest I went was ric. The rest of my xcs were exactly as he said. I wasn't really expecting it to be that way but I got it done. Not on time, by the way. Not many people that i talked to either.

I think you were the first person to give me some sort of ground school on your first day in DAB there Paul.
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Rob welcome aboard man! haha Great to have ya here buddy!
 
well i figured i could give some insight if needed. on my "experience" with atp. you know what it is i am talking about when i say that. so you flying yet or still in the sim?
 
robs01 said:
well i figured i could give some insight if needed. on my "experience" with atp. you know what it is i am talking about when i say that. so you flying yet or still in the sim?
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haha you mean a lack of planes by dispatch and them someone complains about students not getting done in time due to a lack of planes by his dispathers and or a lack of planes due to poor mx and or bad wx.
 
Maybe this issue is isolated to where you instructed at Paul? Ive been instructing for more than a year, and aircraft problems are taken care of rapidly! The maintenance is good, sure there's a need for more seminoles, which atp is continually purchasing, but they're using what they have efficiently. Whatever delays there are, show me a flight school that doesn't have maintenance issues. Sometimes it may seem that ATP has more maintenance issues but imho, keep in mind that planes have 100 hours done every 2 weeks, if not even sooner. I understand that dispatch can be tough to work with in terms of their congeniality; I was the evening "dispatcher" for nearly two months in Jax so i know that it can be frustrating as a student and as an instructor. In this side of the country at least, weather seems to be the biggest downer, not necessarily an ATP issue.

While I was dispatching, two things I learned very quickly was that the majority of stuents did not know how to deal with weather in terms of flying around it etc., when you're going to pick up ice etc etc. Same goes for maintenance; 90% of my calls were students that didn't know how to check alternators to verify their activity, as well as "bad mags." I can't blame the students too much, but there's a difference between not knowing how to lean a mixture and an actual bad mag. Granted though, it's been a year since I've worked there so things may have changed?

For the guys out there that feel that they are entitled to flying from the east coast to the west coast continously during the XC flights, I don't recall any sort of agreement being made to that effect. Sure it would be nice, and many people do get to fly coast to coast, but the purpose is to develop crm skills, your scan, polish your ifr skills and build your time towards the commercial rating. Honestly, if people actually wore their hoods and flew the plane as instructed to, and practiced CRM, instead of using the xc time as a vacation, and to play nintendo ds, they'd increase their aviating skill.
 
turbomax97 said:
Maybe this issue is isolated to where you instructed at Paul? Ive been instructing for more than a year, and aircraft problems are taken care of rapidly! The maintenance is good, sure there's a need for more seminoles, which atp is continually purchasing, but they're using what they have efficiently. Whatever delays there are, show me a flight school that doesn't have maintenance issues. Sometimes it may seem that ATP has more maintenance issues but imho, keep in mind that planes have 100 hours done every 2 weeks, if not even sooner. I understand that dispatch can be tough to work with in terms of their congeniality; I was the evening "dispatcher" for nearly two months in Jax so i know that it can be frustrating as a student and as an instructor. In this side of the country at least, weather seems to be the biggest downer, not necessarily an ATP issue.

While I was dispatching, two things I learned very quickly was that the majority of stuents did not know how to deal with weather in terms of flying around it etc., when you're going to pick up ice etc etc. Same goes for maintenance; 90% of my calls were students that didn't know how to check alternators to verify their activity, as well as "bad mags." I can't blame the students too much, but there's a difference between not knowing how to lean a mixture and an actual bad mag. Granted though, it's been a year since I've worked there so things may have changed?

For the guys out there that feel that they are entitled to flying from the east coast to the west coast continously during the XC flights, I don't recall any sort of agreement being made to that effect. Sure it would be nice, and many people do get to fly coast to coast, but the purpose is to develop crm skills, your scan, polish your ifr skills and build your time towards the commercial rating. Honestly, if people actually wore their hoods and flew the plane as instructed to, and practiced CRM, instead of using the xc time as a vacation, and to play nintendo ds, they'd increase their aviating skill.
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Perhaps the mx was a location thing. However I also know what great mx is due to being able to experience Riddle's program. In addition to the FBO I got majority of my ratings at. They had a large fleet and were kept up to date. Again my thoughts on issues about ATP are a perspective. They are meant to give my perspective of things and how I saw things when I was there. They are not meant to say everything I encountered were and are correct about ALL locations. However as having a great experinece of training at various FBOs, Academies, and ATP I have a perspective some (mostly those who only train at ATP) do not have. I have been able to see great and poor operations. My comments on mx issues are just that. One of the flaws I encountered at ATP. I will not go into detail about issues about specifics but if you wish to PM me feel free and I will go into detail about mx issues.

As far as the x/cs and your thoughts on that. If one is to pay for xc's they should be entitled to a little more freedom. Again just a point I want people to understand when they select ATP. You are not going to an FBO where you are able to plan your xcs and be able to travel where you would like with your MONEY. However you are being dictated as to where to do by dispatch which we try to say "its how the airlines do it." My thought on that is at the airlines you get paid to go to locations and that's great. When you spend your money you should have MORE of a say (not saying TOTAL say). Anyways Turbo feel free to send me a PM to discuss things. I am more then willing to always speak about issues....
 
meyers9163 said:
. I have been able to see great and poor operations. My comments on mx issues are just that. One of the flaws I encountered at ATP. I will not go into detail about issues about specifics but if you wish to PM me feel free and I will go into detail about mx issues.
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Ive been around all sorts of flight trianing opperations as well. ATP is definately one of the best run, from a management and maintenance perspective... PM sent on your issues with maintenance (im curious!)

meyers9163 said:
As far as the x/cs and your thoughts on that. If one is to pay for xc's they should be entitled to a little more freedom. Again just a point I want people to understand when they select ATP. You are not going to an FBO where you are able to plan your xcs and be able to travel where you would like with your MONEY. However you are being dictated as to where to do by dispatch which we try to say "its how the airlines do it." My thought on that is at the airlines you get paid to go to locations and that's great. When you spend your money you should have MORE of a say (not saying TOTAL say).
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Well ATP clearly advertises that the XC's are dispatched. What more could be expected? I dont really see a problem with the XC procedures. Youre right, its not a "fee for all"! Are you saying that ATP should let kids with 150 hours burn holes through the skies all over the country in twin engine airplanes unsupervised? Thats simply not gonna happen, nor should it. the volume and scope of ATP's operation is simply too great for it to be any other way, lest they give up some control of their aircraft.

You just gotta treat it like a job, regardless of whether youre paying for it or not. Thats one of the cool thinkgs about the program IMO. Just the fact that you are able to build XC time in a twin with another peer is an awesome experience for someone with such little experience . i would say thats pretty damn fun even though you dont get to pick where you fly..

I dont know of any other flight school that will rent a twin to anyone with the experience level most ATP student have. Just not gonna happen.

I went to a local flight school to look at what it would take to rent their Seneca. They wanted me to pay for 20 hours of dual and buy my own insurance. I have over 800 hours of mult engine dual given (more than the MEI that would be checking me out).... So for ATP to let 150 hour pilots to fly coast to coast is pretty cool!
 
SIUav8er said:
Ive been around all sorts of flight trianing opperations as well. ATP is definately one of the best run, from a management and maintenance perspective... PM sent on your issues with maintenance (im curious!)
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PM sent back....



SIUav8er said:
Well ATP clearly advertises that the XC's are dispatched. What more could be expected? I dont really see a problem with the XC procedures. Youre right, its not a "fee for all"! Are you saying that ATP should let kids with 150 hours burn holes through the skies all over the country in twin engine airplanes unsupervised? Thats simply not gonna happen, nor should it. the volume and scope of ATP's operation is simply too great for it to be any other way, lest they give up some control of their aircraft.

You just gotta treat it like a job, regardless of whether youre paying for it or not. Thats one of the cool thinkgs about the program IMO. Just the fact that you are able to build XC time in a twin with another peer is an awesome experience for someone with such little experience . i would say thats pretty damn fun even though you dont get to pick where you fly..

I dont know of any other flight school that will rent a twin to anyone with the experience level most ATP student have. Just not gonna happen.

I went to a local flight school to look at what it would take to rent their Seneca. They wanted me to pay for 20 hours of dual and buy my own insurance. I have over 800 hours of mult engine dual given (more than the MEI that would be checking me out).... So for ATP to let 150 hour pilots to fly coast to coast is pretty cool!
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I would agree... No FBO in their mind would allow this.... ATP is able to do so due to the money they make student pay therefore they have insurance able to do such.... Really you have to think about that statement. Fact of the matter is we and I think you can agree allowing two students with less then 100 hours of TT going on x/cs in a twin is rather unsafe..... Therefore why MOST FBOS wont allow it... haha just saying you answered that for yourself.....

Now the 800 dual in ME thing that's just weird.... That FBO well yeah i dunno about that one..... haha You are right about the xcs.... I was just pointing it out more so... Placing an emphasis on it..... You are right there are no guarnatees saying you pick where you go... I agree 100%..... haha like I said I really started this asking questions.. haha my "thoughts since leaving" already hit me true thoughts..... this thread was more so for questions...
 
I instructed at CHI a few years ago and while I have many gripes about ATP, MX was never one of them. Tires, oil pumps, heaters, etc. that needed replacing was overnighted immediately and sent over to the FBO next door ASAP. Perhaps it was because I worked at the edge of ATPs frontier, but I was thoroughly happy with the maintenance department.
 
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