Thunderstorm At Your Destination

FlyChicaga

FlyChicaga

Vintage Restoration
Approximately 10 minutes away from your intended destination (a regional midwest airport), you are informed by the approach controllers that a storm is just hitting the field, and all arrivals have been halted. They offer to provide you delay vectors while the storm passes, which should happen in the next 20 minutes. It is a very large, fast-moving cell. You pull up the D-ATIS on your ACARS, and it says:

KABC ATIS INFO K 1205Z SPECIAL. 25030G65 1/2SM +TSRA BKN003 OVC013CB 17/10 A29.85 (TWO NINE EIGHT FIVE). ILS APPROACH RUNWAY 18L AND RIGHT IN USE. DEP RUNWAYS 18L AND RIGHT. ADVISE CONTROLLER ON INITIAL CONTACT YOU HAVE INFO K.

You are arriving to this airport from the West. Your alternate is behind you; you flew over your alternate on the way into your destination. The METAR for your alternate is as follows:
KXYZ 081152Z 32023G28KT 10SM BKN023 BKN029CB 19/11 A2991 RMK AO2 PK WND 31033/1124 SLP195 T01870106 10067 20039 51036

Calculating your holding fuel, you can fly around for about 10 minutes before you'll be burning into your reserve fuel. What this means is, you currently have enough fuel to hold for 10 minutes, fly to your destination, go missed, fly to your alternate, and have 45 minutes of reserve fuel thereafter.

Question is, do you hang around for another 10 minutes passed your calculated "decision time," knowing it is likely you'll be able to get into your intended destination airport? You are on the backside of the storm in decent weather conditions, which are the conditions expected in about 20 to 25 minutes. Or, do you divert to your alternate airport since you would be burning into your calculated reserve fuel waiting for the storm to pass?

Captain, you now have only five minutes left to make a decision before you reach your calculated "decision fuel." The alternate you have is the closest suitable alternate available.
 
No law says that you have to have that 0:45 fuel in the tanks when you land. Take the vectors, contact dispatch and see what they want you to do. (They should have already contacted you regarding the TRW at the field)
 
grnclvrs said:
No law says that you have to have that 0:45 fuel in the tanks when you land. Take the vectors, contact dispatch and see what they want you to do.
Click to expand...

What?

I wouldn't be relying on dispatch that much at this point. I'd definately talk to them, but they're holed up in a room somewhere probably stressing about other flights as well while the crew is the one who's butt is on the line.

It sounds like the alternate in this situation is really the only option availible other than the destination....and because of that, I don't think I'd want to land there with much less than 45min of fuel. Maybe I'm a wuss though.
 
I always said if you land with less than 45 min in your tank, you've done something wrong.
 
This is a great scenario. I want to know how more of you would handle this. I don't know nearly enough about 121 ops to make a qualified decision, but I am a rated pilot. I say head to the alternate.
 
FlyChicaga said:
Approximately 10 minutes away from your intended destination (a regional midwest airport), you are informed by the approach controllers that a storm is just hitting the field, and all arrivals have been halted. They offer to provide you delay vectors while the storm passes, which should happen in the next 20 minutes. It is a very large, fast-moving cell. You pull up the D-ATIS on your ACARS, and it says:

KABC ATIS INFO K 1205Z SPECIAL. 25030G65 1/2SM +TSRA BKN003 OVC013CB 17/10 A29.85 (TWO NINE EIGHT FIVE). ILS APPROACH RUNWAY 18L AND RIGHT IN USE. DEP RUNWAYS 18L AND RIGHT. ADVISE CONTROLLER ON INITIAL CONTACT YOU HAVE INFO K.

You are arriving to this airport from the West. Your alternate is behind you; you flew over your alternate on the way into your destination. The METAR for your alternate is as follows:
KXYZ 081152Z 32023G28KT 10SM BKN023 BKN029CB 19/11 A2991 RMK AO2 PK WND 31033/1124 SLP195 T01870106 10067 20039 51036

Calculating your holding fuel, you can fly around for about 10 minutes before you'll be burning into your reserve fuel. What this means is, you currently have enough fuel to hold for 10 minutes, fly to your destination, go missed, fly to your alternate, and have 45 minutes of reserve fuel thereafter.

Question is, do you hang around for another 10 minutes passed your calculated "decision time," knowing it is likely you'll be able to get into your intended destination airport? You are on the backside of the storm in decent weather conditions, which are the conditions expected in about 20 to 25 minutes. Or, do you divert to your alternate airport since you would be burning into your calculated reserve fuel waiting for the storm to pass?

Captain, you now have only five minutes left to make a decision before you reach your calculated "decision fuel." The alternate you have is the closest suitable alternate available.
Click to expand...


Easy. Hold for 10 minutes and then get a destination Wx update. If the weather is still over the field and not moving much, go to your alternate as you really don't have a choice. If the Wx is moving as predicted and will clear shortly, I would wait a few more minutes until it does clear. I would then call dispatch after it had cleared and asked him/her to delete my alternate requirement since Wx is no longer an issue. I now have extra fuel to land at my destination safely.
 
Two considerations:

First, we have a stipulation in our FOM that says we cannot depart without proper fuel reserves, but enroute delays or unexpected circumstances do not preclude us from burning into our reserves. Basically, we can burn into this fuel if we feel that using it is a more prudent decision than not.

Also, remember that the fuel reserves are for planning purposes. If you visualize the situation I have presented, you are between your destination and alternate. If you fly to your destination, go missed, then fly to your alternate, you will not likely have 45 minutes of fuel remaining. However, if you fly to your destination and land, or divert to your alternate and land without flying an approach at the destination first, you will land at either airport with well above 45 minutes of fuel remaining.

I have had this exact scenario twice in the past few months.
 
calcapt said:
I would then call dispatch after it had cleared and asked him/her to delete my alternate requirement since Wx is no longer an issue. I now have extra fuel to land at my destination safely.
Click to expand...

Could dispatch legally delete your alternate if the TAF for your arrival time still requires you have an alternate? I say no, even if the current METAR is above what is required.

For instance:
KMDW 111551Z 27011KT 7SM OVC022 02/M01 A2971 RMK AO2 SLP069 T00171006
 KMDW 111130Z 111212 29012G20KT P6SM OVC011
FM1800 28013G20KT P6SM OVC025
FM0000 26006KT P6SM BKN035

You are scheduled to arrive at 1620Z. The current METAR is above the weather minimums required for an alternate. However the forecast for 1 hour before and 1 hour after arrival is 1100 ft overcast, therefore meets the requirement for an alternate.
 
FlyChicaga said:
Could dispatch legally delete your alternate if the TAF for your arrival time still requires you have an alternate? I say no, even if the current METAR is above what is required.

For instance:
KMDW 111551Z 27011KT 7SM OVC022 02/M01 A2971 RMK AO2 SLP069 T00171006
 KMDW 111130Z 111212 29012G20KT P6SM OVC011
FM1800 28013G20KT P6SM OVC025
FM0000 26006KT P6SM BKN035

You are scheduled to arrive at 1620Z. The current METAR is above the weather minimums required for an alternate. However the forecast for 1 hour before and 1 hour after arrival is 1100 ft overcast, therefore meets the requirement for an alternate.
Click to expand...

Dispatch has some discretion if they can establish through reliable means that the destination weather is above what is required for an alternate at your estimated time of arrival. If all they have is the TAF, you're right.
If you're 10 minutes from the airport and the ATIS indicates good weather, the dispatcher can delete the alternate requirement with the captains concurrence. I have had this very scenario happen numerous times.
 
Has the airport been officially closed? Is the weather below the airline's lowest mins? Is an official weather phenomena being reported that would prevent landing per the FOM, i.e. microburst or windshear? Is this the last leg of the trip? Does either pilot have a flight to catch to commute home? Is the game about to start? Is either pilot's car parked there?

If the answer to the first three is "no" and any one of the last four "yes", turn the seat belt sign on early, and shoot the approach.

If the answer to the first is "yes" but the other two "no" and more than one of the last four "yes", argue with controllers to allow you a "look-see", then turn the seat belt sign on and shoot the approach.

I wish this were :sarcasm: but way too many captains do the above. There's "safe" minimums, "company" minimums, "FAA" minimums, "gotta get home" minimums, and the scariest of all, "freight dawg" mins.
 
Likely a lot of truth in SlantG's post. Overly conservative captains will end up at their alternate more often than they should. Overly aggressive captains who lack judgment stand a high probability of running into problems. The challenge as professional pilots is to find that happy medium and be content with your decisions at the end of the day.
 
Or just land and takeoff shortly thereafter as I witnessed two airlines do in SGF the other night during the tornado outbreak :banghead:
 
Not a 121 guy but I thought about it and came up with the following;

When we took off we had the required fuel with the 45 minutes after alternate.

We are now in a hold for 10 minutes assuming everything went according to plan thus far and have now 35 minutes of fuel after our alternate.

If as calcaptn said the weather is moving as forecast after those 10 minutes, and should be clearing out by then, I would wait for the extra 10 minutes, which would make a total of 20 minutes in the hold as told to me by ATC, and land the airplane at the original destination if the weather had moved out.

If after those 20 minutes had passed, and the weather was still over the airport, we have 25 minutes of fuel after our alternate. If I can visually see the edge of the storm moving away (from my current position, if VMC?) and am 100% sure that in no more then 5 minutes the storm would be gone, I would still land at the destination. Anything other then that after the 20 minutes I would divert to the alternate, as the weather is not moving as forecast, is therefore unpredictable, and would be starting to push the fuel not knowing for certain when the storm would be moving out.

As bike21 said, if you do end up diverting you can always pick up some extra fuel and just blast off again minutes later to the original airport hopefully without much of a delay if you are not pushing your rest periods.

Kinda lengthy but thats what I have come up with. Not a 121 guy so some of this might not be as simple, lol.
 
zmiller4 said:
What?

I wouldn't be relying on dispatch that much at this point. I'd definately talk to them, but they're holed up in a room somewhere probably stressing about other flights as well while the crew is the one who's butt is on the line.

It sounds like the alternate in this situation is really the only option availible other than the destination....and because of that, I don't think I'd want to land there with much less than 45min of fuel. Maybe I'm a wuss though.
Click to expand...


Not taliking to dispatch is not an option at some companies. Proceeding to the alternate without an amendment to the flight release would require the captain to exercise his emergency authority, at which point he better declare an emergency to cover his a$$. Contrary to popular belief, dispatch is a resource that should be used when anything out of the ordinary occurs. They are part of the "R" in CRM.
 
grnclvrs said:
Not taliking to dispatch is not an option at some companies. Proceeding to the alternate without an amendment to the flight release would require the captain to exercise his emergency authority, at which point he better declare an emergency to cover his a$$. Contrary to popular belief, dispatch is a resource that should be used when anything out of the ordinary occurs. They are part of the "R" in CRM.
Click to expand...


With a release showing an alternate, the alternate is part of the release thereby not requiring any kind of amendment if you choose to go there. If you had alternate A listed on the release and wanted to proceed to airport B in lieu of alternate A, dispatch needs to be brought into the picture. Of course you can land at any airport using captains emergency authority.
 
Let me guess, TUL with alternate OKC.

I don't think I would hang around for any longer than the point where "decision fuel" was reached. I agree with calcapt in saying hold for 10 minutes and if the wx hasn't imporved bang out to your alternate. If your alternate is only 100 NM or so away the delay can often be minimal.....you can refuel, take off again, and get to your original destination within an hour if things get handled properly.

On the other hand if something goes wrong and you end up having to declare "emergency fuel" you can bet there will be some second guessing and some questions asked....the beneift of holding beyond decision fuel does not outweigh the risk in my opinon.
 
Hang out for the 10 mins, get an update, if the weather's clearing hang out and then land at your dest. If the weather's not improving and you're halfway between your alt and dest, you'll land at the alt with more than enough gas (why go shoot an approach and go missed at an airport you can't land at because of tunderstorms?).


SlantG:

"and the scariest of all, "freight dawg" mins."
Click to expand...

Neither accurate nor cool.
 
SlantG said:
There's "safe" minimums, "company" minimums, "FAA" minimums, "gotta get home" minimums, and the scariest of all, "freight dawg" mins.
Click to expand...

Ouch...just ouch...

There are minimums. Just that. Minimums. Not "safe", not "company", not "get home", nor even "freight dawg" minimums, just the published "FAA" minimums. The lowest available approach minimums at my home airport are 200 and 1800RVR... for ALL Cat I aircraft. Doesn't matter if you are a freight dawg or not.



As far as a thunderstorm at the destination, I would inform approach control that we can hang out and wait for 10 minutes before we have to divert to our alternate. Make sure I get an update a few minutes prior to decision time...if weather is rapidly improving...land...if not...divert. I also agree with averyrm...don't waste precious fuel flying the approach and going missed when you can't land anyway.
 
I had this happen on my first trip out of OE going into MCI.

It was my leg and we had been holding for about 20 minutes when we hit decision fuel. The captain starts typing to dispatch to delete as much fuel as he can off our flight plan and dispatched came back and said, "I don't think that's a good idea." I looked down, looked up at him and said the exact same thing to him. He was adamant to not divert because once we were on the ground we were going to duty out. At that point, I didn't really care since we were starting to cut into reserve fuel and if we didn't get in RIGHT NOW we were going to have some problems if we had to go around in Kansas City, or if we didn't get in.

Right about then dispatch came back and said we could go down to 3,800 from our 4,200 lbs. for decision fuel but after that we should divert (which I very much agreed with) and at the same time approach cleared us in. We had a nice, normal approach and landing in clear weather but it was getting hairy fast. What I couldn't believe was the captain's willingness to toss out all our fuel to the point that were going to have about 1,800 lbs. left when we touched down at MCI if we had continued to hold, which he was again quite willing to do.
 
As i interpret this situation we are heading to the alternate. There are a lot of options in turboprops though, i can turn 10min of holding into about 13-14 pretty easy with a power adjustment so if I was in the situation i might act a bit more patiently.

The described situation happened as an FO and my captain stared it down and made it in just fine... however we did wait around for a while on the ground for the lightning to clear. Got in fine though.
 
I never make any assumptions when it comes to fuel. Wait the 10 mins, see what is going on, then if you can start the approach then, go for it. If not, divert. Your job is to get everybody to the destination safely. If you can do that, getting them there on time is the next thing on the priority list. If safety isn't reasonably assured, then completely forget about being on time until safety is assured again.
 
jtrain609 said:
I had this happen on my first trip out of OE going into MCI.

It was my leg and we had been holding for about 20 minutes when we hit decision fuel. The captain starts typing to dispatch to delete as much fuel as he can off our flight plan and dispatched came back and said, "I don't think that's a good idea." I looked down, looked up at him and said the exact same thing to him. He was adamant to not divert because once we were on the ground we were going to duty out. At that point, I didn't really care since we were starting to cut into reserve fuel and if we didn't get in RIGHT NOW we were going to have some problems if we had to go around in Kansas City, or if we didn't get in.

Right about then dispatch came back and said we could go down to 3,800 from our 4,200 lbs. for decision fuel but after that we should divert (which I very much agreed with) and at the same time approach cleared us in. We had a nice, normal approach and landing in clear weather but it was getting hairy fast. What I couldn't believe was the captain's willingness to toss out all our fuel to the point that were going to have about 1,800 lbs. left when we touched down at MCI if we had continued to hold, which he was again quite willing to do.
Click to expand...


Sounds like the captain made the right decision. Does he get any credit or do you just chalk it all up to dumb luck? Your decision would of resulted in timing out at your alternate and stranding a plane full of passengers which in your words you "didn't really care." If this was you first leg off OE, I would like to think that I would be saying something like "Hey captain, I realize I am new here so please explain your thinking to me" rather than just assume he is a dumb a$$. Typically, new regional FOs do not know everything, but I guess you could be the exception.
 
In the first question I'd hold right then and there when I heard the news. You flew over your alternate so the closer to the halfway point you are as you hold buys you more time to monitor the overall situation. So you might have 15+ minutes now. If, by then, the situation still doesn't look good head to the alternate and land with 45min in the tanks.
 
calcapt said:
Sounds like the captain made the right decision. Does he get any credit or do you just chalk it all up to dumb luck? Your decision would of resulted in timing out at your alternate and stranding a plane full of passengers which in your words you "didn't really care." If this was you first leg off OE, I would like to think that I would be saying something like "Hey captain, I realize I am new here so please explain your thinking to me" rather than just assume he is a dumb a$$. Typically, new regional FOs do not know everything, but I guess you could be the exception.
Click to expand...

To be honest, there wasn't much discussion happening. Right about as I was going to speak up and say, "Hey boss, we've hit decision fuel, we're actually PAST decision fuel and the longer we stay here the fewer options we have to get to our alternate. There's a monster thunderstorm sitting on top of the airport, nobody is getting in and ATC keeps telling us they'll get us in, "In a few minutes," but it isn't happening. We've gotta make something happen here and kinda soon. I don't think we should be here, dispatch doesn't think we should be here and we've gotta make something happen here by either getting into our destination or making it back to our alternate," ATC finally got us in. To be honest I chalk it up to dumb luck. I have no idea how long he was willing to sit there and wait out the storm after we had blown past decision fuel and had dispatch telling us that we shouldn't be deleting fuel out of our flight plan because of weather out there.

I might be fresh into the 121 world, but I'm not an idiot. This captain had already proven to me on previous legs that Doug's phrase, "The skipper will kilt you dead," isn't a joke. We've got dispatch, decision fuel and a bunch of other great things behind us to protect us from ourselves so we don't simply keep saying, "Well get in after a few more minutes, we'll get in after a few more minutes."

Remember that United DC-8 that crashed in Portland because they ran outta gas while troubleshooting a problem? The engineer and FO knew they were running on fumes, but because of an intimidating captain they couldn't, or wouldn't speak up. I'm all up for listening to what the captain has to say, and I've been learning A TON from 99% of the captains I've flown with, but every once in a while you run into somebody that you really wonder if there's anything going on upstairs.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top