Don't need a degree eh?

For the airlines maybe, but I will be the one that calls BS on this post. I went to college for a while, and I didn't care for it. I don't have a four year degree and I am flying a shiny jet, not at the airlines, but in the charter/corporate world. I did flight instruct, but only 600 hours worth before I went to fly freight. In the corporate world it is at least 80% who you know, not what you know.

People can say what they want, but I don't believe you HAVE to have a degree and I don't believe you HAVE to flight instruct.
 
calcapt said:
Velo and calcapt excluded. :crazy:
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You old dudes REALLY ought to take a seat in the back of the room (errr, plane) and keep your eyes/ears open and your mouths shut. Remember you'll be retiring in 10-15 years and will be handing the reigns over to the next generation of big-time airline captains! :D
 
dc3flyer said:
People can say what they want, but I don't believe you HAVE to have a degree and I don't believe you HAVE to flight instruct.
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I believe the point was that you're more competetive with a degree and instructing experience, so when the requirements go up in economy's downturn, you're the one staying afloat.
Anyway, I agree with most of what jtrain said, but I'd like to add that because of economy of scale and technological advances, being a pilot won't be such a hot high profile job as it once was (or still is?), I think it probably won't be as competetive in the future as it still is today. However, that's just my opinion on the subject.
 
dc3flyer said:
...but I don't believe you HAVE to have a degree and I don't believe you HAVE to flight instruct.
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In my experience, I both agree and disagree.

I don't believe you have to have a degree in our society IF you have a marketable skill and significant relevant experience. Flying, in its essence, is a marketable skill. As a software engineer, I have a very marketable skill, which, for better or for worse, has enabled me to put my last 30 college credits on the back burner in favor of accumulating flying experience. And as long as I keep that skill somewhat current, I'll have something to fall back on (or, a way to supplement my income).

On the flip side of the coin, I believe those last 30 credits will have to be a priority for me to be successful in my aviation goals; remember, all things being equal, what will make you stand out?

In IT, I stand out for most positions by having 10 years of desirable experience. If I were applying for a senior architect or managerial position, however, all the candidates would have the same 10 years of experience, and I would lose out by not having a C.S. degree that the other geeks probably have (not losing any sleep over that though...) When dozens of guys and gals are vying for a slot at a legacy, they all have thousands of hours of relevant experience. The ones without the degree aren't getting a phone call, because the other 97 have one. Now, you still have 97 on a level playing field, what makes one stand out?

To answer John's original post, no, you don't need a degree....depending on what your goals are. You can comfortably find a middleground and hang out there without one, or you can aim for the upper echelon with one. Look up the word "underemployed" to see what happens if you fall short. Of course, there are the Bill Gates' and Michael Dells' to provide the exceptions to the rules.

Oh, and a quick note to troopernflight: 4 years of getting up early? C'mon now, my first order of business as a college freshman was to schedule all my classes after lunch...
 
majorityof1 said:
But I must ask who cares? The hiring minimums are crazy low, but it is part of today’s hiring market.
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Yep. So what happens when the majors slow hiring and the regionals get backed up? We got back to where we were a couple of years ago. The feast is over, and the famine sets in. I remember applying to PSA when I had 800/150. They laughed my application out the door. Now, I'd be in the upper echelon of times with some of their new hire classes. Don't even get me started on Pinnacle's ultra-low time new hires. Back in the day you needed 1000/200 to even meet the minimums here, and that day was only about 2-3 years ago. In fact, Pinnacle was off my radar until I got hired at Skymates b/c I didn't think I'd be able to GET 200 ME.

The gravy train is gonna come to a screeching halt here soon. Possibly even THIS year sometime. Those that aren't prepared are gonna be faced with a long, hard job search ahead of them. For me, I'm glad I made the choices I did when I did. If my airline goes TU and hiring at the crazy low 600/100 times stops, I know I've got the time to do something else. Heck, I've even got the mins to fly freight or charter. The 600/100 guy that raced to the regionals might not have that option unless he's been at said regional for a while and flying his tail off.
 
Good post J-train

I concur with Skidz that the requirements for the pilot profession will diminish eventually. If you figure that average flight training now is 50k, average bachelor degree 25k, your talking 75k for a job where pay really isn't increasing and possibly decreasing in the future. Your going to get to a point with the price of gas increasing flight training costs so much and the rates for college increasing so fast that it will become completely impractical for somebody to enter the profession with the amount of money it would cost and especially if the requirements remained bachelor degree and possibly master degree.
 
kellwolf said:
Yep. So what happens when the majors slow hiring and the regionals get backed up?
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Once you have your seniority number, it doesn't matter. Granted, most people don't want to be career regional pilots, but they have a good 3-4+ years of work to put in at the regional level before they will even qualify for a legacy.

So short term, I would say get a job now, if you qualify, and work on the degree as you go.
 
He with the most boxes checked gets the job......period. I don't understand the "just enough to get by" mentality.

Good post.
 
esa17 said:
He with the most boxes checked gets the job......period. I don't understand the "just enough to get by" mentality.

Good post.
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Hammer, meet head of nail. Let us call it what it is, having a degree is nothing more than a "weeding out" factor, those that have and those that don't. The current market at the Legacies and such allow them to to be pick about this. Going to college does not make you smarter or more "smarter" :crazy: it simply checks the box. If your goal is to fly a big shiny jet for some legacy you have to play the game.
 
I honestly didn't know there was a way in life to get smarter or dumber (unless you get hit on the head really really really hard by something or like OD on acid), there's only the ability to fill your head with knowledge. How fast you can learn it and what you do with it determines how smart you are.
 
troopernflight said:
Not only is a 4-year degree probably going to be a requirement for legacy hires in the future, it has it's other advantages as well. 4 years of getting up early, making sure you're on time to class, studying for that big exam the night before, writing that 15 page term paper, giving up that trip to the beach because you need to work a little harder in a certain class, etc.etc.etc. This has the tendacy to make you grow up real quick. Heaven knows, being a pilot is an awesome responsibility. Going through college not only makes you much more competative in the field, it will be something that will benefit you throughout your aviation career. If all you know how to do is fly, and you haven't gone through the college experience, you are at a serious disadvantage... bottom line.
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You forgot figuring out how many beers you can drink and still be functional the next morning.:sarcasm::rawk:
 
Let me just add though, that not everyone has the same goals in aviation and that is where this falls short of addressing. I'm not disagreeing, just adding another facet to the thread.

Someone may do very well in this career without a college diploma or CFIing and make good money doing it. That may not be in the regionals or majors, but that is such a small facet of aviation with all the other opportunities out there too.

So, take the info with a grain of salt and do with it whatcha will
 
mojo6911 said:
Once you have your seniority number, it doesn't matter. Granted, most people don't want to be career regional pilots, but they have a good 3-4+ years of work to put in at the regional level before they will even qualify for a legacy.

So short term, I would say get a job now, if you qualify, and work on the degree as you go.
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That's ok, but as you said, once you have the seniority number, who cares? Many people had that exact attitude in the late 1990s. They had made it to a major and said "what the hell, I don't need to keep polishing my resume because I'm here". Then the bottom fell out and the were on the street and even with heavy jet time (AND a seniority number) they were having trouble getting hired into the right seat of an turboprop or RJ.

I know several guys here (at a regional) who got hired with no degree and said they'd finish it once they got settled in. Well, several years later and they haven't taken a class yet.

Not saying everybody is like that, but human nature tends to lean in that direction.
 
You're right--in general. This is a competitive industry where the "bare minimum" isn't going to get you very far. Without trying to sound too much like a cliche, the only constant in this market place is change. For kids coming into the industry right now, timing is definitely on their side--not something I'd hold against them. When I graduated from college in December 2002 and started looking for a full-time flight instructing job in early 2003, here's the exact quote from the Expressjet website during that time period (from that neat website archive.org):

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thank you for your interest in joining the ExpressJet team. We are not accepting resumes for the pilot position. We encourage you to check back often to apply when this position is available. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Once again, thank you for your interest in ExpressJet Airlines.[/FONT]

No 1000/200, No 2500/1000 mins, Nothing. No resumes accepted, period. With a CFI, CFII, and MEI, not even the flight schools were hiring. I found my own students and instructed in the university's flying club airplane and, as a volunteer, in the Civil Air Patrol before I was picked up for an Air Force pilot slot. I'm not whining that the barriers to entry aren't now what they were then--the timing just didn't work out for me when I was ready to find a job in the civilian world but was extremely lucky to get the military opportunity when I did. I have zero regrets, but if I were graduating today with a fresh 600 hours on my ticket like I did 5 years ago, I might have played the game differently based on what the job market will bear. Of course, as you said, there are cycles and there will be another downturn in the hiring. All I can say is that if you're lucky enough to have been able to meet the qualifications of a good regional airline when you did, then congratulations to you--in addition to having a good work ethic, you were lucky. I'm 28 and both flying in the reserves and Part 121 cargo, but you have at least three more years before you have to retire than I do, since you're only 25 and still very young with you're whole life ahead of you, and you appear to be in a good position right now to go as far as your dreams take you. With that said, of course I'll agree with you that you're still relatively inexperienced (as am I) and you have alot of competition out there--how "grey haired" did you expect to be at 25. While you appear to be doing things right, I still detect some bitterness and high ego in your post (not that those things are hard to find in aviation ;) ). Why take that attitude? It will only lead to continued frustration and eventually you'll be burned out doing this job. By stating you "need not apply" if you have to ask certain questions, encourages the younger crowd not to explore their options. Of course they should be asking all the questions that come to their mind--they don't know the industry as well as you do and it's natural to be curious about what it will really take to get the job they're looking for. Had I never asked anyone what the market conditions really are, I'd perhaps still be working on my Doctor's degree with 5000 hours of dual given in piston props and the Nobel Peace Prize just because I want a job flying shiny jets! The bottom line is that those qualifications aren't necessary and it's important to understand not what the market was 2-5 years ago, but what the market is right now. What the market will be two years from now is anyone's guess, so I wouldn't wrap myself around the axle too much about that.

For those considering a career in this field, timing and networking are everything for getting a job, seniority is everything for keeping a job. In some years, you need CFI credentials to get an interview, right now you do not. There was a time you needed to come from the military for that shiny jet job, right now you do not. To answer the topic at hand, get your college degree. Education is an invaluable experience that will make you the "whole person" the airlines are looking for (not to mention the opportunity to network). But if the job opportunity is staring you in the face and you're qualified for a good regional like ExpressJet, then go for it and work on your degree as time permits (but ultimately get that degree!). And please, don't waste any portion of your life at a bottom feeder carrier like Mesa who hires wet commercial tickets. If you're right out of high school and just starting flying, focus on the degree first because you're not likely to get hired until you're close to 21 anyway. But in four years when you graduate, don't be surprised if you see the "no resumes are being accepted" notice just like I did--world events make that impossible to predict. If that happens to you, work on making yourself better and more marketable because there will be another hiring boom and you'll want to be ready for it.

 
...great, it's get a degree month at JC! Already 3 degree threads in gen forums!

I was really beginning to tire of all the cyclical proto scabs, jetU/Gulfstream sucks, and do I need a CRJ course threads!

:D

Oh, yea, get a degree!

No, really! Get a degree!
 
These are my two cents:

Anything that you can get to set you appart from the crowd is a worth investment. Everyone needs to look at what they want and figure how to get there and be selected from the crowd. College is always a good thing because it gives you a fall back. You never know what the future holds.
I'm 33 and have just started on this path, I have a B.S. in Aerospace Eng from Riddle, MBA, Full FCC license, all instructor tickets, Military Service, Top Secret Clearance, and a few other certifications and I hope to keep adding to the pile not only because it will give me an upperhand in the resume sorting pile, but you grow as a person.
And so trully for those who still don't believe this, but who you know has more weight than all above. Network!!, don't burn your bridges. I have not yet been able to attend a JC conf. but I plan on it, even though I have just started flying and will be a couple of years before I can hope to go to the Majors.
 
Regardless of the validity of your post Jtrain, you have got to be one of the most self absorbed people in this forum. How can your hot girlfriend stand your arrogance? Young man, I thought I had seen it all.
 
toddnorrish said:
Regardless of the validity of your post Jtrain, you have got to be one of the most self absorbed people in this forum. How can your hot girlfriend stand your arrogance? Young man, I thought I had seen it all.
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Don't know about his hot girlfriend, but I know his hot FIANCEE is pretty tolerant of him. :)

Having lived with him myself for an extended period of time, he's not really as self-absorbed as you think he is.....
 
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