CFI Billing...how do you bill for time?

[Helodriver27]

The reason that I am asking this question, (aside from wanting numerous opinions from active CFI's) is that I'm not sure what's better for both sides of the fence(student and CFI/school). I was going to a school that charged for instructor time in a manner I thought was pretty much "you're getting what you're paying for". By this I mean however much time you are face-to-face with a CFI, is the time you are getting billed for. From my understanding, this is pretty standard, no? And fair. The instructor that I had at this flight school resigned because of managerial issues, and "less than par" aircraft maintenance. He didn't feel as though he could continue flying with them and maintain a clear conscious knowing the things that he knew. So he quit. I support his decision, no questions asked...except, who am I going to learn from now? (He is currently working on doing his own training on the side...but this is a topic of discussion for another time). Enter Part Deux of this thread...

What do you think of a flight school that charges you in "block time"; say, 2 hours at a time...regardless of how much CFI face time you get? For example, I want to go up for an hour that day because it's all that my schedule will allow (work, or otherwise). Flight school and CFI both reap the benefit of that 2 hours regardless of how much their services were used.

I'm just looking for a few opinions. And I'm sure that I will get plenty highlighting the details of the PRO's and CON's of their rebuttal. I understand that a CFI's time is worth money...I am not at all arguing that. But is it right or wrong, that they are getting paid when they're not working for it? Thanks...

 

[moxiepilot]

will reply later today because this is an important topic to address

 

[Douglas]

I have been to two flight schools and One FBO as a student.
The flight schools always charged, .5 pre-flight and .5 post flight ground school.
The FBO, the instructor charged what he wanted.

Now i work as an instructor at a new place and we automatically charge .4 ground each time, but if pre-and post breif takes longer than that, we have to add it on.
If your CFI left, (i am not saying you should leave) find out more about it and decide if this place is a place that you can continue with. Remember, you are the student (customer), you don't feel safe or feel taken advantage of, walk out. Too many places offer flight training to be "stuck".

Good luck

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

What do you think of a flight school that charges you in "block time"; say, 2 hours at a time...regardless of how much CFI face time you get? For example, I want to go up for an hour that day because it's all that my schedule will allow (work, or otherwise). Flight school and CFI both reap the benefit of that 2 hours regardless of how much their services were used.

I immediately think ripoff if I hear this scenario. Why charge by the hour, if you are just going to charge everyone 2 hour blocks?

 

[Ian_J]

Rip off, bro. You should pay your CFI by the hour, unless other arrangements have been made. But you as the student shouldn't let yourself get into paying more than what they offer.

Question: If you liked your CFI, (and trusted him), and he thinks the school is shady, (which it sounds like it is), why are YOU staying there? Shoddy maintenance and over-billing? See ya.

 

[Wing_96]

I think it's BS! I wouldn't pay for an instructor who is not teaching me. That's like paying a whole hour for an airplane when you only put .4 on the Hobbs. Total BS.

I have no problem paying an instructor for the time that they are teaching. However, I do have a problem with an automatic .4 instruction charge for post flight when all I got out of it was a logbook entry signed by the CFI...that's not instruction.

 

[Stratopilot]

A CFI should bill for the time he/she/it teaches. If theres .5 of pre and post flight briefings, the CFI has every right to charge for it. Every minute counts when your living below the poverty line. Furthermore preflight and post flight briefings SHOULD BE DONE BEFORE EVERY FLIGHT, if the student really wants to get the most out of every lesson. However, charging .5 hobbs, shady, very very shady. Some times its wise to read between the lines. If the school is doing that, then its in trouble financially, and its best to leave.

 

[dc3flyer]

When I was an active CFI, I charged my students for my time. I also didn't keep a very sharp eye on my watch, so I would end up charging them with about .2 or .3 more than the hobbs time. I would rarely charge more than that.

 

[subpilot]

I scheduled 2 hour lessons and as long as I was available to the student for those two hours then I charged 2 hours for my time. However, if we actually did more or less than the norm then I charged for the time I was with the student. On one extreme, If a student scheduled a lesson and shows up 45 minutes late then I still charge 2 hours because I was available. On the other end of the spectrum, I went on a 4 hour cross-country that included a 3 hour stop at an airport so that he could see friends. When we got back I charged him 7 hours for my time because that is how long I was available to him.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

There is no such thing as a "fair" or "unfair" method. What counts is if the student and the instructor agree that the cost and value of the service are in sync. The billing method is just the mechanics to get there.

Personally, I charge block time for normal lessons (non cross country) (so I guess I'm one of the rip-off artists). I discuss the various billing methods that are out there and why I choose to charge a 2-hour block. I have not had anyone walk away because it was "unfair." Some down-right appreciate the budgeting ability it gives them.

 

[bdhill1979]

Its pretty simple really.


At the start of our time I hit the timer button on my watch.......... this allows me to stop the time if I have to take a phone call or go grab lunch while they are working on a flight plan or something, then restart it once I am back.

I tell them from the get go that I do that and round up to the nearest tenth.


So far no complaints, I think it is the most fair way to do it. I am paid for my time, and they aren't paying if I am doing something else for a few minutes.

9 times out of 10 however it is right to that 2 hour block.

 

[exleardriver]

i've always charged hobbs time plus all time spent in a pre-flight/post-flight briefing. if on occasion all i'm doing afterwards due to time or whatever, just signing their logbook, then i don't charge for a post. no complaints in 15 years.

 

[Helodriver27]

Rip off, bro. You should pay your CFI by the hour, unless other arrangements have been made. But you as the student shouldn't let yourself get into paying more than what they offer.

Question: If you liked your CFI, (and trusted him), and he thinks the school is shady, (which it sounds like it is), why are YOU staying there? Shoddy maintenance and over-billing? See ya.

I haven't yet finished reading through all of your guys' replies, but I just wanted to address something I didn't make clear in the first place.

The school that I was going to (haven't officially left, yet) is the school that only billed for time you were with the instructor. There are two major flight schools at the airport in question here. The OTHER flight school is the one that I am comtemplating, and does the "block" billing. I just wanted to clear that up. Thanks...and MUCH thanks for all of the replies so far!! Keep 'em coming!!

 

[Helodriver27]

You all did exactly what I had hoped you would...state your position in (more or less) which of these two types of billing you utilize. I came into posting this topic completely non-biased, and am still as such. I see the reason in both methods. Some of your reasons for justification didn't make sense in some posts, but for the most part...I got great feedback. The following is my summary thus far;

"Stop watch" method: I like this method in the respect that you are truly billed for the time that you have utilized said CFI. This is indeed a business, and to many students this is going to seem like the obvious answer to get the most bang for their buck. They know exactly what they are getting regardless of which lesson or point in their training they are at. No surprises. Off the bat, this seems like the obvious best choice to most folks. The major down fall to this method (from the CFI POV) is that if you have a student fail to show, how are you compensated for your time..WAITING? Unless there is an agreement instilled that states you pay for at least an hour for a no-show...or the like. I know of many CFI's even just at my own airport that drive in quite a ways to meet with a student...and if a student doesn't show, they should indeed be compensated for their time. (Unless a re-schedule arrangement has been made, and agreement made). Is this method, there is no "you pay even if you don't get the full time of instruction, but we'll keeping billing you even if you go over .2!" or whatever.

"Block" method: As I stated before, I completely understand that a CFI's time is worth money. If you have a student on the schedule from 10am until noon, that student has "taken up" your time for those 2 hours, regardless if they are present or not. There was one reply that mentioned a student showing up 45 minutes late...or heck, didn't show at all without a phone call. I can see where this type of billing helps you, in the fact that you can't simply let someone else fill their "no-show" block, until after they haven't shown! I spoke with the owner at the school that utilized this type of billing. I asked what his policy was almost right off (because I was informed before hand by other folks, {CFI's}), and wanted to get the details. He told me that if I had scheduled 2 hours and for whatever reason didn't show, I'd be billed 2 hours...no questions. But if one of his CFI's happened to not show for whatever reason, "something could be worked out". I don't like THAT...you can't put air in one tire, and ignore the other 3! I don't at all mind this method in the respect that if I know I have the time to go up for the full 2 hours, I am not overpaying and am getting the full benefit of what I paid for.

Have I opened up any cans yet?!?! LOL......I am definitely not against the block billing, as long as it is fair for both parties. (Meritflyer, I apologize for having used the fair/unfair terminology...it's all I could come up with). I understand the having an agreement, but sometimes it really is fair/unfair, and only suites the school. (I am not saying that is the case here, but sometimes a school policy is blatantly only supporting themselves, and not the student :whatever.

 

[Helodriver27]

There is no such thing as a "fair" or "unfair" method. What counts is if the student and the instructor agree that the cost and value of the service are in sync. The billing method is just the mechanics to get there.

Personally, I charge block time for normal lessons (non cross country) (so I guess I'm one of the rip-off artists). I discuss the various billing methods that are out there and why I choose to charge a 2-hour block. I have not had anyone walk away because it was "unfair." Some down-right appreciate the budgeting ability it gives them.

Even with the comment that I made in my previous post about fair/unfair...I want you to know that I have read many posts from you and sincerely respect you opinions and views on many topics.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I want you to know that I have read many posts from you and sincerely respect you opinions and views on many topics.

Your check is in the mail.

 

[moxiepilot]

Okay - I'm jumping in late because I had some flights to attend to, but I'm going to try to address everything I can:

T I was going to a school that charged for instructor time in a manner I thought was pretty much "you're getting what you're paying for". By this I mean however much time you are face-to-face with a CFI, is the time you are getting billed for.

As midlife stated, if you feel that this is fair for both parties, then good on ya!

What do you think of a flight school that charges you in "block time"; say, 2 hours at a time...regardless of how much CFI face time you get?

Kept in check I also see this as fair. Students do not see the amount of unpaid work that goes into training students - trying to keep them on track with studying, juggling scheduling, having 4 cancellations a week that you dont bill a no show for that could have been used by someone else....i could go on.

I spend hours a day on the phone and responding to emails from students. I don't get paid for that. If I was to charge block time it would help cover some of that unpaid time.

So again, if you deem that both parties are gettign a good deal, then great. I just caution havign a block time agreement with a CFI whose standards or ethics are low.

For example, I want to go up for an hour that day because it's all that my schedule will allow (work, or otherwise). Flight school and CFI both reap the benefit of that 2 hours regardless of how much their services were used.

this is bogus. as stated this type of block agreement is taking advantage of things. there is no reason that a 2 hour block can not be adjusted to a 1 hour block.

But is it right or wrong, that they are getting paid when they're not working for it? Thanks...

again I just want to point out how much time an instructor worth their weight in gold does not get paid for. they are few, far in between, but worth the money paid to them.

"Stop watch" method: I like this method in the respect that you are truly billed for the time that you have utilized said CFI.

Unfortunately taking this ridigd approach, I would then also have to bill like a lawyer for any phone calls (lets say arranging a checkride with the DPE), calls with the student (so I was thinking about....) and would get shafted if you were 15 minutes late (hey, it wasn't utilized).

Take this approach with a grain of salt, ultimately the one who benefits from this is the student, it is not an equal trade off IMHO.

Have I opened up any cans yet?!?!

not yet, at least youre asking to make an informed decision

 

[Helodriver27]

Okay - I'm jumping in late because I had some flights to attend to, but I'm going to try to address everything I can:


As midlife stated, if you feel that this is fair for both parties, then good on ya!


Kept in check I also see this as fair. Students do not see the amount of unpaid work that goes into training students - trying to keep them on track with studying, juggling scheduling, having 4 cancellations a week that you dont bill a no show for that could have been used by someone else....i could go on.

I spend hours a day on the phone and responding to emails from students. I don't get paid for that. If I was to charge block time it would help cover some of that unpaid time.

So again, if you deem that both parties are gettign a good deal, then great. I just caution havign a block time agreement with a CFI whose standards or ethics are low.

this is bogus. as stated this type of block agreement is taking advantage of things. there is no reason that a 2 hour block can not be adjusted to a 1 hour block.


again I just want to point out how much time an instructor worth their weight in gold does not get paid for. they are few, far in between, but worth the money paid to them.


Unfortunately taking this ridigd approach, I would then also have to bill like a lawyer for any phone calls (lets say arranging a checkride with the DPE), calls with the student (so I was thinking about....) and would get shafted if you were 15 minutes late (hey, it wasn't utilized).

Take this approach with a grain of salt, ultimately the one who benefits from this is the student, it is not an equal trade off IMHO.




not yet, at least youre asking to make an informed decision

Moxie-

I appreciate your taking the time to express aspects to both sides of the fence. As nice as it is to see some folks post up what they do and why, it's nice to see a truly unbiased explanation. You make some very good points. Let me also reiterate that I am NOT against paying for a CFI who is truly going to help me get through what I am working to accomplish. With my last CFI, I would have paid $60+/hr for the guy, no questions asked! He is that good; after having 4 different instructors to date, I believe that I can make that statement...he is that DAMN good (short explanation of his status: he is currently "free-lance". He was toying with the idea of buying a plane and teaching out of it, but says that he cannot convince himself to make that kind of investment at this time, and still be able to justify dealing with the maintenance, etc. on his own.) My only option in still utilizing him is to join the FBO club and use their 172A (that's right, A-model!). I know mechanically this airplane is in great working order, simply because 3 of the club members are mechanics. Wet rate is something like $45/hr. It's just the initial fee to buy into the club...and the fact that once I obtained my PPL, the plane would not be ideal for instrument, etc. AT ANY RATE...I stand behind the idea that a good CFI/school worth the time, is worth the money. I hope no one here thinks that I support otherwise.

What is fair to one student, may be completely bogus to another. I would like to agree on something with this other school that uses block scheduling, but have a hard time agreeing that I'm going to pay for 2 hours, regardless of the fact that I may only be there an hour. At $40/hr, that means every 3 times I was only able to show for that one hour, I'm losing an hour on the hobbs! No bueno!

I just wanted to answer to a specific quote you made..." Kept in check I also see this as fair. Students do not see the amount of unpaid work that goes into training students - trying to keep them on track with studying, juggling scheduling, having 4 cancellations a week that you dont bill a no show for that could have been used by someone else....i could go on." My view on this is that, not all students need to be driven to study. Long before I sat my butt in that beloved cockpit I had spent many months learning as much as I possible could just to have a better understanding of how things were going to be once I was able to start actually flying. I actually had my PPL written out of the way, and feel I was very well versed once I was able to start flying...no assistance needed by way of studying. What about those students who are so well driven, aren't a scheduling nightmare, and never cancel? Why should we pay for unused time like the guy/gal who is a pain in your side?

(BTW, I wasn't trying to gear this entire reply simply at MoxiePilot! I started into responding to a few of his statements, but most of this is geared as general population reading).

 

[Helodriver27]

Your check is in the mail.

Just a respect issue. I know you spend a lot of time here and give some very good advice. I didn't want you to think I was putting your opinion on the back burner because of the comment that I made (not that what I say matters to you, but..yeah, LOL).

 

[minitour]

I charge $50/hr minimum booking is 2 hours.

For "cross country" I'll usually do a day rate and we'll knock out a bunch of the cross country flights all at once. Then again, I strictly "freelance" my work now, so I'm not with a flight school of FBO.

If I have to travel to you (which happens a good deal of times) The day starts when I leave my garage and my days end when I pull back in. That is charged as a day rate.

Normally the client books me on economy but occasionally I'll get biz class or 1st class...if they book me on a good non-stop flight and put me in a nice hotel, I do a little bit more since they also have done more than necessary.

It's a good system. I'm available for the entire time you book me. If you schedule me for 3.2, I'm available for 3.2. If you schedule me 6+, I'm yours all day and you pay the day rate.

I did have one student book me for 2 hours an hour away and someone else booked me for 2 hours half hour away from that. The first student showed up 1+20 late, I worked with him for 40 minutes, charged him for 2 and had to go. He was upset that I didn't spend 2 hours with him. He's the only one I ever have had a problem with. He only paid me for 40 minutes and I haven't worked with him since...in fact, no CFI that I know has worked with him since. Can't leave the next client hanging because the first client couldn't wake up on time. He scheduled me at 8am...

-mini