Medals(rant)

[alphaone]

These are simply the facts of life in the military. People can choose to be idealistic and wish that medals meant things, and that all good soldiers get rewarded. Or, you can be a realist, and realize medals don't mean squat. (Exceptions aside.)

Also know most in the military, even those with a rack of medals, know they really didn't do much more than their jobs to get them. When you see your commanders up there getting an award, they are probably thinking their Joes should get the award, not them. But the process of not accepting an award is a PITA and not worth the hassle.

As a former commander, I'll own up to all my awards:

Army Service Ribbon: You get this for joining the Army. Everyone gets one.
National Defense Service Medal (2): You get these for being in the military while there is a war on. Everyone gets one.
Good Conduct Medal: Got this for three years of enlisted service without getting in trouble. Everyone gets one.
NCO Professional Development Ribbon:Got this for passing a 4 week school. Everyone gets one.
Army Achievement Medal (2): Got these for doing my job in the field as an enlisted infantryman.
Army Commendation Medal (5): 3 were for PCSing/ETSing, two were for wartime service. (Meaning, I got them cause I was there.)
Air Medal (4): All for flying in combat. Really just a service award. I never did anything special.
Meritorious Service Medal: Given simply because I was a company commander.
Iraq and Afghanistan Campaign Medals: Given because I was there.
Global War on Terror Medal: Don't get me started on this one.

The award system is broke, but it's nothing new. It's been broke along time. Nothing to really worry about IMO.

Ian, although you seem very modest (which shows qualities of a good officer) I think you did deserve those medals. You sacrificed alot and you put everything on the line for the nation, same for everyone who recieved any medal.
Basically what I am saying is that you may think you got the medals for "just being there", but signing up, going through the training and "being there" when you have the option to not too means alot.
So, thank you for your service sir!

 

[tgrayson]

I want to protect and defend the constitution

It's being lost at the ballot box, not on the battlefield.

 

[Ian_J]

Ian, although you seem very modest (which shows qualities of a good officer) I think you did deserve those medals. You sacrificed alot and you put everything on the line for the nation, same for everyone who recieved any medal.
Basically what I am saying is that you may think you got the medals for "just being there", but signing up, going through the training and "being there" when you have the option to not too means alot.
So, thank you for your service sir!

Well, at the very least I'll have lots of pretty pins to put on my VFW hat when I'm old and gray, complaining about how it used to be.

 

[Malko]

While it wouldn't drive me to fight, I understand staplegun's sentiment.

To me, if you're in the Navy, an "at sea" deployment is a rite of passage, and the Sea Service Ribbon tells me you shared in the same joy, pain, and mostly misery :insane: that I also had to on a "cruise."

Hey, I'd salute someone and tell them what a lucky S.O.B. they are to snag a choice overseas billet , but there's no way you can tell me that 6 months at Subic is as deserving of a Sea Service award as 6 months floating in the middle of the Ocean.

It's not that we need a piece of paper, cloth, or metal to make us feel pride in what we've done. It's more an affront that someone has a piece of paper, cloth, or metal to take pride in what they've not done.

The award for suffering on a ship: ShellBack.

JEP
CV-61 ('92-'93)
Proud Card Carrying ShellBack :rawk:

 

[Timmypig]

Not being in the US forces, it's probably not for me to opine ..... Oh what the heck....

"Sea Service Ribbon" ?
"Recruitig Service Ribbon" ?
"Drill Instructor Ribbon" ?
"Achievement Medal" ?

Huh? Aren't medals supposed to be for going to a war? Other than long service medals should there be any awards like those above? I'm not going to buy into an argument about who was awarded a Bronze Star for this, or a DFC for that - those are bravery and similar awards for wartime service, no arguments there. Similarly campaign medals - one for each warzone, no sweat.

But isn't it getting silly when people with a couple of overseas trips and a tour in Iraq have 4 rows on their uniform?

 

[Lefty]

Aren't medals supposed to be for going to a war?

Yes some medals are for recognizing brave and or valorous act's committed in a war zone going above and beyond the call of his/her duty.

Other than long service medals should there be any awards like those above?

Why not, if you served and were awarded certain ribbons for accomplishments in your career why not set yourself apart if you earned them...such as the ribbons you listed above. If you did a tour floating then why noy be apart of the crew that sports that ribbon...same goes for NCO development schools...etc.

But isn't it getting silly when people with a couple of overseas trips and a tour in Iraq have 4 rows on their uniform?

IMHO, i actually think that our deployed soldiers deserve more than just a few ribbons for putting their lives on hold and spending 12-18 months away from there families. Often in a very hostile environment...

Either way though, like it was mentioned I seriously doubt todays soldiers are here for the ribbons...


They don't get deployed and come home with four rows either, if you figure someone with three-four years in will already have 2 rows or more...

 

[Timmypig]

IMHO, i actually think that our deployed soldiers deserve more than just a few ribbons for putting their lives on hold and spending 12-18 months away from there families. Often in a very hostile environment...

Either way though, like it was mentioned I seriously doubt todays soldiers are here for the ribbons...

Amen brother.

 

[SkyCougar]

Well, at the very least I'll have lots of pretty pins to put on my VFW hat when I'm old and gray, complaining about how it used to be.

Don't be talking about my daddy!

I think anyone who is deployed deserves recognition. My dad was the chief electrician on a sub during the Korean War and he deserved every accolade he got when he passed away. I can't imagine living on one of those old, rusty cramped subs for months on end. When they did the gun salute, folded up the flag, and handed it to us at his gravesite, I was beside myself with pride, as well as grief.

 

[USMC-SSGT]

4 years worth of medals. All of it for deployment minus the national defense and the good conduct. This day in age there were Lance Corporals that had a few more than me in one 4 year tour. Our brothers and sisters are OVERWORKED

I also have a Navy and Marine Corps Achievment medal for Iraq but I had not recieved it before the photo was taken. I find the Marine Corps is STINGY with medals (unless you are an O)

We dont get marksmanship ribbons or bootcamp completion ribbons

 

[Hacker15e]

We dont get marksmanship ribbons or bootcamp completion ribbons

Maybe not...but in the USAF we also don't have 6 different marksmanship badges. The only recognition for being a pistol or rifle expert is that ribbon...there is no badge.

So, we're talking about different flavors of the same thing here.

 

[jbpetty6203]

Heres wat I really love. I have been deployed 4 times so far, with once only 2 months in the states before I went back out again. And have I got a single medal for those 4 dpeloyments, nope not a one, not one that helped me towards a promotion. The only thing I have recieved is an achievement medal for participating in Base Honor Guard when I was an A1C. Oh and another thing, I love the aircrew guys that get air medals when they do however many sorties in a deployed location. But did all of you know that when they get back from there 10 or so hour flight they get a full 24 hours off sounds nice, huh? Well at least it does to me when I am working outside the entire time 12 hour shifts that normally turn into 14 and working 6 days on and 1 day off and come back with,mmmmmm, well some extra pay and some stories. Anyway thats my venting on the whole medals thing, guess I just need to finally cross train into the dark side and go engineer.

 

[USMC-SSGT]

Maybe not...but in the USAF we also don't have 6 different marksmanship badges. The only recognition for being a pistol or rifle expert is that ribbon...there is no badge.

So, we're talking about different flavors of the same thing here.

Touche....I thought of that after I posted it. But you forgot the most important one....the distinguished marksman badge

well played ol' chap

 

[MFT1Air]

dont forget that the bronze star is not just a combat action related medal anymore. If it is not decorated with a V it can simply mean that you had any slight miniscule thing to do with a combat related mission and didnt screw up (provided you were 0-4 and above).

I'm on the same sheet with you. That 'V' carries much more significance to those who know. We, who have served, know the disparity of awards, but the level of the award doesn't lessen the work done or where you were when you received it (hostile fire). It may help as far as promotions are concerned, but once you've transitioned to civilian life. . .who cares?

example.
also the combat action ribbon, I can not count how many random officers tried to jump in on our patrols in the hope of kicking it in the back of the hummer and us finding some action so they can wear their CAR through the admin hall proudly

Sore subject

Been there, seen that. Had my moments where those REMFs had the same fear and uncertainty of not coming back as I did. Couple of them actually managed to get a Purple Heart out of it. (One posthumously )

 

[Kato]

Oh and another thing, I love the aircrew guys that get air medals when they do however many sorties in a deployed location. But did all of you know that when they get back from there 10 or so hour flight they get a full 24 hours off sounds nice, huh? Well at least it does to me when I am working outside the entire time 12 hour shifts that normally turn into 14 and working 6 days on and 1 day off and come back with,mmmmmm, well some extra pay and some stories. Anyway thats my venting on the whole medals thing, guess I just need to finally cross train into the dark side and go engineer.

I understand your point jbpetty, but it is a little skewed. I've done 3 deployments myself, and the only time our crews ever had 24 hours off was when there was a maintenance issue with the aircraft. Yes, there is pre and post mission crew rest requirements, but it is needed when the crews are routinely flying 16+ hour missions in that environment, ops tempo, and heat in a $90 million dollar airframe.
And depending on the airframe, 20 combat missions - not sorties - is the requirement to recieve the Air Medal. Each mission for us would usually consist of 4-6 sorties.

I'm not trying to invalidate your post, because you've been there and done that and I respect that - just wanted to clarify.

Oh, and the dark side is a fun place to be......

 

[MFT1Air]

I understand your point jbpetty, but it is a little skewed. I've done 3 deployments myself, and the only time our crews ever had 24 hours off was when there was a maintenance issue with the aircraft. Yes, there is pre and post mission crew rest requirements, but it is needed when the crews are routinely flying 16+ hour missions in that environment, ops tempo, and heat in a $90 million dollar airframe.
And depending on the airframe, 20 combat missions - not sorties - is the requirement to recieve the Air Medal. Each mission for us would usually consist of 4-6 sorties.

I'm not trying to invalidate your post, because you've been there and done that and I respect that - just wanted to clarify.

Oh, and the dark side is a fun place to be......

Just read info on the Air Medal. :yeahthat:

. . .besides, in order of precedence, it is behind the Bronze Star.

 

[Hacker15e]

I love the aircrew guys that get air medals when they do however many sorties in a deployed location. But did all of you know that when they get back from there 10 or so hour flight they get a full 24 hours off sounds nice, huh? Well at least it does to me when I am working outside the entire time 12 hour shifts that normally turn into 14 and working 6 days on and 1 day off and come back with,mmmmmm, well some extra pay and some stories. Anyway thats my venting on the whole medals thing, guess I just need to finally cross train into the dark side and go engineer.

So, are you irritated that aviators have 12 hours (not 24) off between flying duty periods (and maintainers don't have crewrest requirements), or that they are eligible for an air medal every 20 combat sorties (and maintainers aren't)?

 

[88MPH]

So, are you irritated that aviators have 12 hours (not 24) off between flying duty periods (and maintainers don't have crewrest requirements), or that they are eligible for an air medal every 20 combat sorties (and maintainers aren't)?

I'd say it's the latter. The thread was started with a rant about people getting medals for "just doing their normal job."

While not intentionally taking away from the difficulty and significance of pilot/aircrew jobs, that's what they were trained to normally do. Just like crew chiefs were trained to normally crew chief normally. But do you ever see a CC get a medal for launching 20 consecutive airworthy aircraft? No. Well, I've seen an acheivement medal for "sustained deployment ops tempo" regarding airworthy aircraft, but no higher.

If the maintainer were lucky enough to land a flight deck seat, then he'd be getting medals for flying 20 consecutive sorties (or however it works).

Personally, I USED to care about medals/awards/EPRs, until one awards ceremony, I was up for Airman of the Year against my old Red Rope, and on paper, it was no contest. But he was the little b#### boy for a chief, so he was 2 years used to brown nosing. I, however, didn't have the "interview" experience at the time, so they picked him. Now, I know all those little ribbons/papers/plaques aren't worth the material they're made of.

(It wasn't just because I was "cheated" out of one award either, it's a whole matrix of crapola)

 

[Hacker15e]

While not intentionally taking away from the difficulty and significance of pilot/aircrew jobs, that's what they were trained to normally do. Just like crew chiefs were trained to normally crew chief normally. But do you ever see a CC get a medal for launching 20 consecutive airworthy aircraft? No. Well, I've seen an acheivement medal for "sustained deployment ops tempo" regarding airworthy aircraft, but no higher.

Well...the point of the Air Medal is to recognize combat missions flown. It means nothing other than that -- it bears nothing on an aviator's career progression, future jobs, or promotions. It simply shows how many combat missions have been flown.

What's objectionable about that?

FWIW, I'm not eligible to win the Leo Marquez award, or the Maintenance Professional of the Year award, or any number of maintenance-only awards, but I'm not ranting about it. Why should a maintainer rant about an award designed for aircrew?

 

[fish314]

Well...the point of the Air Medal is to recognize combat missions flown. It means nothing other than that -- it bears nothing on an aviator's career progression, future jobs, or promotions. It simply shows how many combat missions have been flown.

What's objectionable about that?

FWIW, I'm not eligible to win the Leo Marquez award, or the Maintenance Professional of the Year award, or any number of maintenance-only awards, but I'm not ranting about it. Why should a maintainer rant about an award designed for aircrew?

This may be true if you're talking about officers, but don't forget that there are a large number of enlisted aircrew out there who are eligible for AAM's and AM's as well. And for the enlisted, it definitely makes a difference (at least in the USAF), because medals count for points towards promotion.

So a boom operator, loadmaster, or door gunner would have an advantage over a crew chief (or supply troop, comm guy, CE troop, finance troop or whatever) when it comes to sewing on that next stripe, because he could have full points for medals a lot quicker if he's got a bunch of AAM's or AM's.

Of course the flip side of the argument is that the boom operator, load, or gunner is at least theoretically exposed to more danger (since they are "COMBAT" or "COMBAT SUPPORT" sorties, after all), and hence deserves the medal and the quicker promotion because of it. But that isn't true across the board, by any means. An SP troop who is manning the gate at a base in Baghdad is probably exposed to more danger than a boom operator refueling F-16's over head.

 

[Hacker15e]

http://www.afa.org/magazine/Dec2003/1203medals.asp

For Air Force enlisted members, the more prestigious medals translate into points under the Weighted Airman Promotion System. The Medal of Honor, for example, counts 15 points, the DFC counts for seven, and the Air Medal, three. The maximum number of points an individual can count for medals is 25.

However, this practice has been criticized for giving an edge to airmen in specialties where awards are more likely to be given. Officials argue, though, that the WAPS medal-point system only does what human selection boards have done for years.

As chief of the Air Force’s Recognition Programs Branch, Dudley said she is more concerned with presenting awards where earned. “Our primary goal is to ensure that the appropriate awards are given to deserving airmen,” she said. “We have vested the decision-making authority in our commanders, and we rely heavily on their integrity.”

Approval authority rests with various commands, depending on the award. “For all the operations [in] Southwest Asia, awards up to and including the DFC are approved by the US Central Command Air Forces commander,” said Marchino.