Speaking of Regional Pay...

[Airdale]

To all first year FOs: WTF option ARE you choosing besides b!tching on every bulletin board about low wages?

It is pretty discouraging to all aspiring pilots to read the constant tear-jerking sob stories.

Well, why don't you just take the same option that so many of you "aspiring" SJS pilots do - go fly for Mesa for $19/hr and just be happy you're flying a jet!

Or, you could grow up and realize the industry is need of changes, and rather then be a part of the problem and take jobs at $19/hr with a big old smile bent over for management because you're just happy to be there - you can get your foot into the career field and fight for what is right.

But based upon your previous posts, I think its obvious the route you will choose. Have fun flyin that JET!

 

[killbilly]

Killbilly, yes I am a pilot, however I'm not an airline pilot yet. I'm currently working on my instrument. And yes I know I won't be paid for what I think I deserve whenever I make it. I never once said that the economy was, or should be based on what you deserve. My point that I was making earlier was a response to Cre8flyer. He made this statement: "Economically, what is the value added by a pilot? In the long term, pilots cannot earn more than the value they add to the economy." If you read back, I made a point in regards to that statement.

Matt, the post you made which I was referring to was this one: http://forums.jetcareers.com/691213-post27.html

I cannot justify the argument that it's not "right" that pilots at the "low" end of the industry are paid so little, because it applies subjective...well...morality...to what is a straightforward economic issue. Pilots, collectively, have established that they will work for those wages, and management, collectively, sees no need to pay more than they have to when it's the FAA who determines quality control on that pilot supply.

I realize that's an oversimplification of the issue, but the fundamentals are sound.

If (and it's a big if at the moment) I ever get to the 121 level, sure, I'll vote with my pocketbook, just like most folks do. But I won't be able to shake my head and say "this ain't right" when I knew what I was getting into, well-researched, and with open arms.

You made a later point about a pilot needing a livable wage. This is a sound argument. That the level of stress on these guys can lead to diminished performance in the cockpit, both physiologically and psychologically. This is a valid and sound argument as well.

The key there, I suspect, (because I'm no MEC) is to convince management and decisionmakers that the long-term savings to be gained for paying 121 pilots a better wage outweighs the present costs now.

That's just my opinion though. I may change it as I progress.

I agree with you. If the economy worked like that, then yes "cops, teachers, soldiers and electricians would be the highest-paid professions in the land." Unfortunately it’s not. But that was the point that I was making when talking about how much $$ airlines bring to the economy.

One more thing, the pay airline pilots receive like you said, is what the management or the union decides to pay us. However, it is our responsibility (the pilot group) to fight for better pay and QOL. I don't know about you, but I think it is disrespectful to pay an FO poverty level wages.

While passionate, I am not persuaded. It's disrespectful to pay a wage and then destroy the wage and pension for years of service - see what happened to Delta.

But disrespectful to tell him ahead of time what he's going to be paid? Not in my book. If I find it disrespectful, I won't take the job. Someone else can do it. If I decide it's worth it, then it's worth it. Your mileage may vary.

 

[mattp1803]

Matt, the post you made which I was referring to was this one: http://forums.jetcareers.com/691213-post27.html

I cannot justify the argument that it's not "right" that pilots at the "low" end of the industry are paid so little, because it applies subjective...well...morality...to what is a straightforward economic issue. Pilots, collectively, have established that they will work for those wages, and management, collectively, sees no need to pay more than they have to when it's the FAA who determines quality control on that pilot supply.

I realize that's an oversimplification of the issue, but the fundamentals are sound.

If (and it's a big if at the moment) I ever get to the 121 level, sure, I'll vote with my pocketbook, just like most folks do. But I won't be able to shake my head and say "this ain't right" when I knew what I was getting into, well-researched, and with open arms.

You made a later point about a pilot needing a livable wage. This is a sound argument. That the level of stress on these guys can lead to diminished performance in the cockpit, both physiologically and psychologically. This is a valid and sound argument as well.

The key there, I suspect, (because I'm no MEC) is to convince management and decisionmakers that the long-term savings to be gained for paying 121 pilots a better wage outweighs the present costs now.

That's just my opinion though. I may change it as I progress.



While passionate, I am not persuaded. It's disrespectful to pay a wage and then destroy the wage and pension for years of service - see what happened to Delta.

But disrespectful to tell him ahead of time what he's going to be paid? Not in my book. If I find it disrespectful, I won't take the job. Someone else can do it. If I decide it's worth it, then it's worth it. Your mileage may vary.

I'm not really sure how to respond lol. The thing is I'm going to be an airline pilot. I have researched for years, and understand what type of pay to expect. All I'm saying is that it still is not right to pay regional pilots sooo low. For me personally, I feel that the options are limited. Say I want to be a Delta pilot someday (example) then what are my options? Sure there are a few options to look at. I just think it's a shame of what the industry has become. Is that going to kill my dreams? Nope. I can't see myself doing anything else. I am fully prepared to accept my low pay check, and hope some day to have a decent airline job. I just think it's unfortunate (referring to regional pay)... that is all.

Now about this:
"While passionate, I am not persuaded. It's disrespectful to pay a wage and then destroy the wage and pension for years of service - see what happened to Delta."

I have grown up in a primarily Delta community. Lot's of Delta pilots, flight attendants, rampers in my area. I think it's a shame the Delta guys had to loose so much from their pay check, but they knew going into the career that there is always a chance for economic down fall. I hope I'm not stepping on any toes with this statement, because I don't mean to... There is always a risk in this industry. One day you are the highest paid pilot in the sky, and the next you are selling off extra cars and houses to live on your new wage. I've seen this first hand... my neighbors are Delta pilots. It's a darn shame, but whether you are a low paid regional pilot or you are a 20 year Delta captain sometimes the industry can bite you in the butt. Hopefully you can be optimistic and realize that you still love to fly, and keep your head up and move on.

On a side note: I hope someday that the wages Delta pilots once earned will return. I maybe a little too optimistic with that statement, but one can only hope!

 

[Alchemy]

:yup: What do you smoke?

It takes 6 months and $60'000 to go from zero hours to FO. Do you really think that the average FO adds as much value as an engineer, accountant, lawyer, nurse, marketing guy, etc. that studies for 4+ years at many multiples the cost of becoming a pilot?

The argument about the cost of the equipment and the value of the lives does not hold water. Airline procedures are responsible for the safety of the equipment and preserving the lives. The value added by the crew is "high tech truck driver".

Studying for 4+ years automatically makes you worth more than a pilot? I think not. I've met plenty of accountants and engineers who couldn't fly a plane to save their life, even after making an honest attempt to learn. If you think anyone can just walk up and become an airline pilot in 6 months think again. Many if not most people are just not capable of doing it, which is why pilots have value. The only thing I'm smoking is pride in my craft/profession.

 

[aloft]

When I am talking to passengers while deadheading, in the terminal, and when I tell people what I do they immediately think I am living on rich and easy street. ... They are thinking that because of the respect they have for pilots. Respect a lot of times translates to money. ... If they find out how much I truly make they are in shock that we are paid so little.

And that's entirely the crux of the matter. The general public has no idea what pilots make. They all assume EVERY airline pilot makes $100k/yr or more and has thousands of hours of experience, so every time they hear about pilots striking for pay increases, all they think is, "those greedy bastidges!" Seriously, ALPA need to do a better job at publicizing the pilots' plight. Given the likelihood that a passenger purchasing a ticket from a mainline carrier will actually fly on a subcontracted carrier, airlines SHOULD disclose the experience and pay levels of their pilots. If customers knew there was a chance the FO on their flight had scant more than the bare minimums for a commercial ticket, do you think they'd choose to fly?

Civil Air Patrol now uses an operational risk management matrix to assess the level of risk for any given flight, considering factors pertaining the proposed sortie such as weather, terrain, pilot qualifications, health, experience, etc. The matrix' product is a risk index, which is then evaluated against a scale for determining who may authorize the flight; the greater the risk index, the higher up the "chain of command" must approve.

Can you imagine if such a process existed in the airline industry, with the risk index being disclosed to passengers? "Folks, our destination is forecast to be at minimums on arrival, our captain just got off IOE and our first officer has only 500 hours total time, barely 100 in type, and he just got off his part-time job at Home Depot 2 hrs ago, so he's not terribly well rested. Sooo....our risk index for this flight is a whopping 250 points, those of you wishing to deplane at this time, please press the attendant call button overhead..." anic:

 

[dbrault17]

So...we should all make one of two choices: Abandon pursuing a career in this industry and get a job flying a desk

or

shut the hell up, bend over to management and keep our mouths shut?


I choose neither option. Just because we knew before hand that first year pay sucks, doesn't mean we shouldn't fight to change it. People like you must carry bottles of KY in your back pocket, seeing as how you enjoy getting bent over. Either that or you carry around anti depressants because you're miserable working a 9-5 job when you'd rather be flying at 30,000 feet.


Side note: Last week was my 6 month mark at Colgan. YTD gross pay (including overages) $9,082 :nana2:

I never really said dont try and stop it but its kinda hard to make a good fight when everyone is signing up to take those jobs paying at 19k a year. Give me one good economical reason (numbers not emotion) to pay first year FOs any more money than what they are making now when there are stacks of resumes of 700 hour pilots drooling at the job.

I think if people just hold out a little longer in taking those regional jobs at low wages then the applicant pool will get to the point where it will be neccasary, finacially, to raise first year pay (ie Airnet).


And oh yeah, I work at Flight Express flying a Cessna and Baron absolutly loving my job. I just hit my six month mark last week-$18,500:rawk:.

 

[flyover]

And that's entirely the crux of the matter. The general public has no idea what pilots make. They all assume EVERY airline pilot makes $100k/yr or more and has thousands of hours of experience, so every time they hear about pilots striking for pay increases, all they think is, "those greedy bastidges!" Seriously, ALPA need to do a better job at publicizing the pilots' plight.

To the main topic of this thread, regional pay, it needs to be said that the one thing most responsible for producing "poverty" wages for pilots around the industry was the Scope scheme devised in the early 80s.

ALPA agreed to, hell practically insisted on, it for one reason only: To build a permanent fence between the low wages of regional airlines and the high wages of mainline. At the time there was nothing but contempt for regional pilots. There was no expectation that they would become part of ALPA. It was considered that the regional crews would be made up of people that couldn't cut it as mainline pilots. The "un-hireables".

Only one ALPA group fought this at all. That was United who was not as willing to abandon a fundamental union principle as other groups were. But they eventually were brought in line.

Of course it was also not foreseen how big the regional business would get and the type of equipment that would arrive for them to fly. The move to organize regionals into ALPA was only taken after the realization that they (ALPA) had f&%#d up. Now some airlines have more different pilot groups flying on their schedules than there were total ALPA groups when I came to work.

So many of you can blame "society", the customers, lack of PR by ALPA, bankruptcy, evil management, etc. etc. for the rest of your careers. None of it will get you anywhere because it violates the first rule of problem solving, know what the problem is.

I don't know how to fix this, it may not be fixable. But to pretend that this is a great system, that it's only fair that "newbies" pay their dues at regionals, is delusional. When you get that job at XYZ regional crewing that jet on a Delta/United/American.... schedule you are a full-blown airline pilot. You aren't in the minor leagues anymore, even if ALPA says you are.

The flying you'll do every day is much more challenging than a mainline guy going to Europe. Hell, I think one of the reasons the ALPA guys wanted scope was they were scared to death they might have to fly a Metroliner someday and didn't know if they could.

 

[Cruise]

To the main topic of this thread, regional pay, it needs to be said that the one thing most responsible for producing "poverty" wages for pilots around the industry was the Scope scheme devised in the early 80s.

ALPA agreed to, hell practically insisted on, it for one reason only: To build a permanent fence between the low wages of regional airlines and the high wages of mainline. At the time there was nothing but contempt for regional pilots. There was no expectation that they would become part of ALPA. It was considered that the regional crews would be made up of people that couldn't cut it as mainline pilots. The "un-hireables".

Only one ALPA group fought this at all. That was United who was not as willing to abandon a fundamental union principle as other groups were. But they eventually were brought in line.

Of course it was also not foreseen how big the regional business would get and the type of equipment that would arrive for them to fly. The move to organize regionals into ALPA was only taken after the realization that they (ALPA) had f&%#d up. Now some airlines have more different pilot groups flying on their schedules than there were total ALPA groups when I came to work.

So many of you can blame "society", the customers, lack of PR by ALPA, bankruptcy, evil management, etc. etc. for the rest of your careers. None of it will get you anywhere because it violates the first rule of problem solving, know what the problem is.

I don't know how to fix this, it may not be fixable. But to pretend that this is a great system, that it's only fair that "newbies" pay their dues at regionals, is delusional. When you get that job at XYZ regional crewing that jet on a Delta/United/American.... schedule you are a full-blown airline pilot. You aren't in the minor leagues anymore, even if ALPA says you are.

The flying you'll do every day is much more challenging than a mainline guy going to Europe. Hell, I think one of the reasons the ALPA guys wanted scope was they were scared to death they might have to fly a Metroliner someday and didn't know if they could.

Wow, someone who actually respects the work of the regional airline pilot!

Thanks, Flyover! :hiya:

 

[tonyw]

:yup: What do you smoke?

It takes 6 months and $60'000 to go from zero hours to FO.

And it takes zero dollars and about two weeks to start in a sales job where your total comp at goal will be $60-70K with yearly increases in your base if you make goal plus bonuses.

Guess that you don't like having prior intel, and would prefer to enter the industry blind folded.

Me, I appreciate the cold hard truth.

:yeahthat:

Otherwise, I'd be looking to ditch a good job with a nice career progression for a company that treats me well for one where I'd need at least five years and an upgrade to captain to get back to where I am now.

Ain't happening. And if I did it, I'd be one miserable SOB and the poor guy who had to fly with me would hear about it.

And you'll hear it from me. There's no reason someone flying around a $30 million plane should be making less money than me. It's absolutely absurd. If I screw up, a sale goes bad.

If someone flying a $30 million dollar plane around screws up, people die.

 

[cre8flyer]

Flyover's post is awesome! Thanks for the facts and historical perspective.

dbrault17's too.

TonyW's also.

Where were you intelligent guys yesterday when there was only emotion flying around here?

 

[jtrain609]

So ya'll are saying pilots are only worth what the market will pay them right?

And people will only pay what they think something is worth, otherwise they'll either purchase something else right?

Well in this case, folks don't have any idea of what they're buying really costs. They have the understanding that they're purchasing a pilot to fly their aircraft and he's making X rate, when it's not anywhere close to the rate that is probably in their head.

Therefor doesn't that kind of screw up that metric? If people knew how much pilots made, or more so, how they're TREATED, do you think they'd keep getting on airplanes?

What does that make those pilots worth then?

(Not that this discussion matters much, there are WAY too many outside actors in the "free market" that airlines operate within to think that it's actually a free market. From unions to government intervention, the idea that the market is controling our pay rates and the prices of tickets is COMPLETELY unfounded. It SOUNDS nice, and we'd LIKE to believe that it's true, but it isn't. We're fooling ourselves at this point and the sooner we realize we have much more control of the situation than we currently think, the sooner we can go about fixing the problems that we have)

 

[surreal1221]

I like the way that sounds......and thats STILL too low really. But, it would be a start.

Indeed, but what do I know. . .just trying to make sense sometimes.

 

[dbrault17]

So ya'll are saying pilots are only worth what the market will pay them right?

Sort of. Yes the market has alot to do with how much we make but we can change that by collectivly refusing to work at those rates. We would in essence demand higher rates from the market. Since this is a high skilled proffesion with alot of red tape to get through to be allowed to fly, we have the advantage of not working for certain pay rates (only by staying together or very large numbers). If we refuse to go fly for an airline that pays FO wages at poverty leval wages then there will be a stonger demand for FOs thus increasing pay. Again, LOOK AT AIRNETS PAY RAISE! Ask yourselves, why did that happen?

If we dont work the supply of air travel goes way down while the demand will stay pretty much the same. The market would then have to pay for our higher priced services.

But since everyone wants to fly jets, or says "im gonna try to change it from the inside dude" (I love that one, hows it working out?), nothing will change.

And people will only pay what they think something is worth, otherwise they'll either purchase something else right?

I would. Sorry guys but if I could save 100 bucks on roundtrip home for a weekend flying on mesa vs. skywest (just for example) I would buy the ticket on mesa. And I know just how much less those guys make and their work rules vs. skywests.

Flying from a costumers point of view is point A to B as cheap as possible (for the most part). The general public are not the ones who are going to bail us out of crappy pay wages.

 

[dbrault17]

Just to clarify something, I dont have a big problem with those who decided that are going to put up with first year pay and just do what they think they have to do. Kinda like I dont really blame the Mexican worker stealing american jobs for a chance to make his family lifes better.

I just wonder about the people who whine about how little they are getting paid while knowing full well how much they will make and doing the one thing that wont change the rates, by accepting the job.

 

[surreal1221]

Which is more reason for management to stick it to the consumer.

Consumers, flying wise, in this country have gotten cheap fares for far too damn long. It's time for these companies to really make money again. Not just coming by. Charge what it actually costs to operate that flight, per seat, add some nice services, and increase fares again. But I'm sure my detractors will scream about "Yeah, blame the consumer. . ." Well guys, who are you going to blame?

Only thing that makes sense to me. And you know what, when your company is making more money year over year, that means more can be spent on providing a quality work environment for your employees, and as such, happier employees.

But hey, that makes too much sense. . .

 

[dbrault17]

:yeahthat: I agree but managment isnt just gonna come out and help us poor pilots out. We need to give a reason.

You know what, screw it. Cant beat'em, join'em. Im going back to school getting a degree in managment and then Ill collect the bonuses, profit sharing, and stock options and have money to buy my own plane.

 

[jtrain609]

Here's my next question: what's your life worth to you? The bar has been dropped across the board in every aspect of the aviation industry over the last handful of years.

What will eventually happen is we'll start crashing airplanes.

How's that for a market correction.

 

[killbilly]

Here's my next question: what's your life worth to you? The bar has been dropped across the board in every aspect of the aviation industry over the last handful of years.

What will eventually happen is we'll start crashing airplanes.

How's that for a market correction.

To be fair, I did say I was oversimplifying things from a market point of view. I get your point - I really do - but I have to agree with dbrault, and, concomitantly, with Lloyd: you know what you're getting into - and although it's perfectly fine to work toward better wages and a better lifestyle for the entry-level 121 pilot, to say it's amoral or pure-D 'wrong' to pay as little as it does is disingenuous at best.

John - we really are on the same side here - and I do have bright hopes for the future - for your sake and everyone else slugging it out there.

 

[surreal1221]

:yeahthat: I agree but managment isnt just gonna come out and help us poor pilots out. We need to give a reason.

You know what, screw it. Cant beat'em, join'em. Im going back to school getting a degree in managment and then Ill collect the bonuses, profit sharing, and stock options and have money to buy my own plane.

I wish you luck. . .now remember. . .it's not WHAT you know. . .but WHO.

Hook a brotha up when you're finally established, I could run flight ops.

 

[flyover]

But I'm sure my detractors will scream about "Yeah, blame the consumer. . ." Well guys, who are you going to blame?

Only thing that makes sense to me.

But hey, that makes too much sense. . .

Makes no sense at all to me. But it feels so good to have somebody to blame. Because if you took responsibility for your own situation and pilots did so as a group, well......that might be hard. And not feel good.