Speaking of Regional Pay...

Cruise said:
Smittey, you're right it's all we have....but it's really nothing in the end. What the CPG is an attempt by management to appease the pilots enough to forget about ALPA before next year. If management can show that they're 'working' with the CPG, it improves their position against legal representation. It's just a ploy. Do no fall victim to this tactic.
You know, I continue to extol the virtues of ALPA representation to the crew members I'm around. So what if we have another 11 months, just more time to inform. There will be another ALPA vote next year and we need to remove all doubt as to why we NEED legal representation. I hear what you're saying about the CPG...but they're a toothless puppet of management and have absolutely no legal power to do anything. I'm not a fan or supporter of the CPG and it is in no way a replacement for representation. Continue your support for ALPA representation.
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And I completely agree. My stance on CPG is: Ok, so they're a management driven entity. Well let's use them to get some things in the meantime while we wait for another ALPA vote. Let's sit down with them and tell them we're sick of doing REPO's after a 16 hour duty day. etc.

I don't want CPG to be a permanent thing, Colgan has had the Colgan Pilot Group before and it got stuff done for them, however because it wasn't legally binding- when things got tough financially at the company, the Colgan's took everything right back.

Once again, it's not about age 60. It's the principal that when they took those polls, a clear majority were when asked straight up, "Should age 60 be ammended?" a majority said NO. Now if Prater says he didn't roll over, I'll take him at his word. I agree with Seggy it was going to change, it was inevitable. But without a fight is not appropriate. I take Seggy as his word so I believe that Prater did it for the best.

I've got to get in the shower, CPT session soon.
 
When an operation introduces a new aircraft type, stuff generally goes to hell for a little bit. The summer we switched from Dorks to Jets our on time percentage was 15% and our completion factor was around 35% for a few months. It's going to get ugly over there and because you don't have any sort of protection in place you are most likely going to get majorly abused to cover the problems generated by the Q implementation.
 
kellwolf said:
I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with this one. My paycheck vs my bills say I NEED better compensation.
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Just because you can't pay your bills doesn't entitle you to a pay raise. If that were the case inflation would be out of control as all these ARM's reset.

I don't know where you're getting the if they need it, compensation would go up.
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When there aren't any pilots left willing to sit in the right seat for $20/hr, pay will go up. It sorta already did, what with the hiring bonuses and stuff. I read that Pinnacle told those guys "sorry, just kidding" though once they got thru training. What a company.

If planes were dropping like flies because of these inexperienced pilots pay most certainly would go up. What people don't realize is planes aren't crashing due to inexperienced pilots, so why would management pay more to put more experienced pilots in the seat? Think like management here, not an employee.
 
wheelsup said:
Just because you can't pay your bills doesn't entitle you to a pay raise. If that were the case inflation would be out of control as all these ARM's reset.
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Didn't say I couldn't pay the bills. Just no disposable income left over afterwards. Sorta like the majortity in America right now. IMO, it's an artificial inflation hike already.

When there aren't any pilots left willing to sit in the right seat for $20/hr, pay will go up. It sorta already did, what with the hiring bonuses and stuff. I read that Pinnacle told those guys "sorry, just kidding" though once they got thru training. What a company.
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But that's not what you said. I don't think management would raise wages if they couldn't get the starry eyed newbies anymore. As you pointed out, ours never really had an intention of the pseudo-raise as it is. They used it as a recruiting tactic, and now they're getting burned when these guys bail to other places. They'd find other ways to entirce people to the airline that didn't cost them more in labor wages.

If planes were dropping like flies because of these inexperienced pilots pay most certainly would go up. What people don't realize is planes aren't crashing due to inexperienced pilots, so why would management pay more to put more experienced pilots in the seat? Think like management here, not an employee.
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The whole "inexperienced pilot" argument could take up its own thread, so I won't go into that one here. We've got guys dropping their check airmen status left and right over here, and it's a b*tch to find the new "mentor CAs" since they'd be essentially doing OE for free. Hasn't stopped management yet. They'll keep plowing through with their "everything is fine" standpoint until they run the airline into the ground. I wish I COULD think like management. Would make the moves they make a little less dumbfounding.
 
kellwolf said:
But that's not what you said. I don't think management would raise wages if they couldn't get the starry eyed newbies anymore.
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I guess we'll just have to disagree then.

Obviously you don't "need" more pay, or you'd leave. Luckily this is America, and we can't be forced to stay at a job that doesn't work for us.
 
wheelsup said:
I guess we'll just have to disagree then.

Obviously you don't "need" more pay, or you'd leave. Luckily this is America, and we can't be forced to stay at a job that doesn't work for us.
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No, if I "needed" more pay, I'd get a second job. There aren't any other jobs out there in my area that I qualify for that I would make more doing. So, if I left this job, I would be making less. That doesn't necessarily mean that I don't need more money, though. Would "deserve" be a more accurate term?

I think where we got off on the wrong foot was when you said that unions at the airlines artificially raise wages, a concept I don't agree with at all. If the unions were able to do that, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
 
kellwolf said:
No, if I "needed" more pay, I'd get a second job
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So your long term solution is to work more? Mine would be move and get a job that pays more, if I can. If not, I'd have to obtain some more skills that would allow me to command a higher wage.

Everyone in this world, from the CEO's down to the guy cleaning the toilets, "deserves" more money.

I think where we got off on the wrong foot was when you said that unions at the airlines artificially raise wages, a concept I don't agree with at all. If the unions were able to do that, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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A while ago, when the local Ford plant was closing, there was a worker complaining about how he'd have to pull his kids out of private school, downsize his car, and have to cut back on vacation spending. He made $100k/yr welding pieces of cars together, a job that non-union shops do for less than half of his pay. The paper even stated he didn't want his name printed for fear of his neighbors laughing at him saying what he did (ie pull your kids out of private school, woe is me...kinda thing).

Unions artificially raise pay. I'm not saying I'm against it, because I like getting paid more, but I think it's hard to refute that fact.

At the regional levels unions are tough to push through wage increases due to the constant subcontracting of the work. It's a tough decision to make as an employee - traditionally companies that paid more receive much less growth and stability than those that pay less. Rest assured this is a problem not only at the airline level but in other areas, such as construction.

Keep in mind, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Everything isn't so cut and dry. But, I think airline pilots are a bit of a commodity these days.
 
killbilly said:
One final thought to MattP1803's point. I understand that you spent a great deal of money, time and sacrifice to become a pilot.

So did my doctor, my lawyer, the CEO of my company, and any of a number of professions.

Those professions pay what they do because that's what the market allows. I don't pay more for my services because I think they're worth it - I pay because that's what they charge.

In short, pilots and (and to a lesser degree, their unions) are getting what management is willing to pay them. Doesn't matter what you deserve. The economy isn't based on "deserve."

If it was, cops, teachers, soldiers and electricians would be the highest-paid professions in the land.
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Killbilly, yes I am a pilot, however I'm not an airline pilot yet. I'm currently working on my instrument. And yes I know I won't be paid for what I think I deserve whenever I make it. I never once said that the economy was, or should be based on what you deserve. My point that I was making earlier was a response to Cre8flyer. He made this statement: "Economically, what is the value added by a pilot? In the long term, pilots cannot earn more than the value they add to the economy." If you read back, I made a point in regards to that statement.

I agree with you. If the economy worked like that, then yes "cops, teachers, soldiers and electricians would be the highest-paid professions in the land." Unfortunately it’s not. But that was the point that I was making when talking about how much $$ airlines bring to the economy.

One more thing, the pay airline pilots receive like you said, is what the management or the union decides to pay us. However, it is our responsibility (the pilot group) to fight for better pay and QOL. I don't know about you, but I think it is disrespectful to pay an FO poverty level wages.
 
mattp1803 said:
I don't know about you, but I think it is disrespectful to pay an FO poverty level wages.
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I still dont understand this thinking. IF YOU DONT WANT TO MAKE POVERTY LEVAL WAGES, DONT ACCEPT THE JOB THAT PAYS POVERTY LEVAL WAGES! Everyone knows upfront how much they are going to make as a first year FO.
 
dbrault17 said:
I still dont understand this thinking. IF YOU DONT WANT TO MAKE POVERTY LEVAL WAGES, DONT ACCEPT THE JOB THAT PAYS POVERTY LEVAL WAGES! Everyone knows upfront how much they are going to make as a first year FO.
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So...we should all make one of two choices: Abandon pursuing a career in this industry and get a job flying a desk

or

shut the hell up, bend over to management and keep our mouths shut?


I choose neither option. Just because we knew before hand that first year pay sucks, doesn't mean we shouldn't fight to change it. People like you must carry bottles of KY in your back pocket, seeing as how you enjoy getting bent over. Either that or you carry around anti depressants because you're miserable working a 9-5 job when you'd rather be flying at 30,000 feet.


Side note: Last week was my 6 month mark at Colgan. YTD gross pay (including overages) $9,082 :nana2:

:rolleyes:
 
Airdale said:
Side note: Last week was my 6 month mark at Colgan. YTD gross pay (including overages) $9,082 :nana2:

:rolleyes:
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SWEET! Now you're living the dream! :panic: :banghead:

Segs doesn't call you BIG ROLLER for nothing.






[SIZE=-3]j/k....The only reason Segs calls Airdale.......is to have him bring the clipper! Shave my back, fool![/SIZE] :laff:
 
dbrault17 said:
I still dont understand this thinking. IF YOU DONT WANT TO MAKE POVERTY LEVAL WAGES, DONT ACCEPT THE JOB THAT PAYS POVERTY LEVAL WAGES! Everyone knows upfront how much they are going to make as a first year FO.
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Oh man. In order to make decent money being an airline pilot you pretty much have to make crap wages first. There are very few options when it comes to flying jobs that will take you to higher paying jobs without first making crappy wages. It's called paying your dues. It's not that I'm misinformed or uneducated on the matter. I know full and well what I will be making first year as an FO. I'm prepared for a very low pay check. Does that make it right for management to pay first year FO's that pay? I don't think so.

And thank's Airdale for understanding lol. :)
 
Cruise said:
SWEET! Now you're living the dream! :panic: :banghead:

Segs doesn't call you BIG ROLLER for nothing.






[SIZE=-3]j/k....The only reason Segs calls Airdale.......is to have him bring the clipper! Shave my back, fool![/SIZE] :laff:
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:laff: I actually shaved the back of his neck for the wedding he was going to. See thats what being a good FO, good team player is all about! Helping your fellow crewmembers out!! :cwm27:

I actually look forward to flying with Seggs next week, on the 30th for the first time! :D
 
Airdale said:
:laff: I actually shaved the back of his neck for the wedding he was going to. See thats what being a good FO, good team player is all about! Helping your fellow crewmembers out!! :cwm27:

I actually look forward to flying with Seggs next week, on the 30th for the first time! :D
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I hope you saved the hair.....someone could braid that stuff and use it for extensions!

Here's a little pic of the Seggster from a recent gathering. Note the clean neck-line courtesy Sir. Airdale! Like he said, that's the true measure of a good FO. Airdale, you sure are a trooper! :buck:

backhair_VERY_hairy_red_hat_DSCN0136.JPG
















[SIZE=-6]FYI.....that's not 'really' Seggy in the pic.[/SIZE]
 
cre8flyer said:
To all first year FOs: WTF option ARE you choosing besides b!tching on every bulletin board about low wages?

It is pretty discouraging to all aspiring pilots to read the constant tear-jerking sob stories.
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Guess that you don't like having prior intel, and would prefer to enter the industry blind folded.

Me, I appreciate the cold hard truth.
 
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