Comair Union says "NO"

[dakovich]

Company put a proposal on the table to pay first year FO's at second year pay. it was their intention to try and lure more of the limited number of qualified applicants to work for Comair. Union said unless they plan on giving an equal percentage pay raise across the board to the entire pilot group that they won't sign off on the proposal.

 

[meritflyer]

That's how it should be, IMO. First year pay for ANY FO is an insult.

 

[PurduePilot]

Finally a union with backbone. We'll see how this plays out and I will be watching this closely.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

This is the second airline that's tried this, and the second MEC to say "hell no." ASA was the first. This is a great indication that management is running out of options, and they've already bottomed out on how low they can take the hiring minimums. Leverage for pilots is on the upswing!

 

[Airdale]

So a company wants to raise first year pay to attract more qualified applicants, and the union says no?

Am I the only one scratching my head over this?

There seems to be such a large gap between first and second year FO pay at every airline, I don't see any problem what so ever with closing that gap to attract more qualified applicants, seems like a better option then lowering their standards - no?



I mean, I am definitely PRO Union - and I would definitely like to see pay raises across the board. But raising first year pay seems like more of a better option then hiring liabilities in the right seat.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Airdale, everyone wants to see first year pay go up, but the rest of the pilot group must receive a raise also. The pilots at Comair have taken huge paycuts and concessions in work rules and retirements. If management is having trouble recruiting and wants to raise first year pay to ease their problems, then they're going to have to give back some of those concessions to the pilots. There are few times that labor has the advantage over management. You can't let an opportunity pass you by.

 

[meritflyer]

Airdale, everyone wants to see first year pay go up, but the rest of the pilot group must receive a raise also. The pilots at Comair have taken huge paycuts and concessions in work rules and retirements. If management is having trouble recruiting and wants to raise first year pay to ease their problems, then they're going to have to give back some of those concessions to the pilots. There are few times that labor has the advantage over management. You can't let an opportunity pass you by.

I am with Airdale on this 100% after giving it some serious thought. This is one of the, if not the most, horrible injustices to the pilot community and would have been monumental for pilots everywhere, including the majors.

CAL pays their first year FO's $30/hr. If a regional is paying their first year FO's a higher wage, majors who pay sub par waqes would have no choice than to up the pay. This would've allowed MEC's everywhere to address this issue with all carriers both regional and major.

This was a huge mistake on the union's end, IMO. I cant stress that enough.

First year wages are not even livable and the union knows that and uses it as propaganda to the public to gain some ground on how pilots are treated but when time comes to change it, they [the union] says no. Shame on the Comair MEC. Dont expose a problem then deny efforts to fix it. There are a lot of problems with how labor is treated. This would've been a step forward in addressing one of them.

 

[zmiller4]

Airdale, everyone wants to see first year pay go up, but the rest of the pilot group must receive a raise also. The pilots at Comair have taken huge paycuts and concessions in work rules and retirements. If management is having trouble recruiting and wants to raise first year pay to ease their problems, then they're going to have to give back some of those concessions to the pilots. There are few times that labor has the advantage over management. You can't let an opportunity pass you by.

:yeahthat:

There's a lot more important things to fight for than low first-year pay, and allowing a company to attract more applicants by increasing first-year rates is really just letting them to put an inadequate band-aid fix on the much larger compensation issues that exist at the regional level.

I'll probably get reamed for this, but I don't have that big a problem with low first-year pay as long as subsequent rates increase dramatically. Look at UPS as an extreme example--first year FO pay is $33/hr, with an increase to $102/hr 2nd year.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I am with Airdale on this 100% after giving it some serious thought. This is one of the, if not the most, horrible injustices to the pilot community and would have been monumental for pilots everywhere, including the majors.

CAL pays their first year FO's $30/hr. If a regional is paying their first year FO's a higher wage, majors who pay sub par waqes would have no choice than to up the pay. This would've allowed MEC's everywhere to address this issue with all carriers both regional and major.

This was a huge mistake on the union's end, IMO. I cant stress that enough.

First year wages are not even livable and the union knows that and uses it as propaganda to the public to gain some ground on how pilots are treated but when time comes to change it, they [the union] says no. Shame on the Comair MEC. Dont expose a problem then deny efforts to fix it. There are a lot of problems with how labor is treated. This would've been a step forward in addressing one of them.

I disagree. Why should new hires get more money then me if I was already a Comair pilot.

That's not fair.

So unless they wanted to raise pay rates all together and give me a fat retro check, then I'd be like hell yea.

But, just because the airline wants to pay welfare wages, and can't attract quality talent, they want to only raise first year pay, while screwing everyone else.

Naaah, uhhhh. Hypothetically, I suffered through first year wages, so can everyone else.

 

[H46Bubba]

Raising the pay for 1st year FO is fine and dandy, but what does it do for the pilot group as a whole, especially for a pilot group that was forced to vote for a TA that took away pay and work rules or face what management was going to impose; nada! If you've got money to raise the pay for 1st year FO's you got the money to increase everyone elses pay. If it's shame on anyone, it's shame on management for proposing the idea. If I'm a second year FO, why should I get paid the same as a 1st year FO? I'm with the Comair MEC on this. Look for the DCI MEC's to start sticking together...well Mesa is another story. All ALPA regional MEC's need to be on the same page. Merit, do you think your MEC would vote yes for the exact same scenario if it happened at Express Jet?

 

[meritflyer]

I disagree. Why should new hires get more money then me if I was already a Comair pilot.

That's not fair.

So unless they wanted to raise pay rates all together and give me a fat retro check, then I'd be like hell yea.

But, just because the airline wants to pay welfare wages, and can't attract quality talent, they want to only raise first year pay, while screwing everyone else.

Naaah, uhhhh. Hypothetically, I suffered through first year wages, so can everyone else.

No, no Max.

It's a little more broad than that. Having the mentality you described makes it okay to rip off pilots, No?

I believe it would've been a huge step in the right direction to fix a laundry list of things. It wouldn't fix all, but its a great start.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

This was a huge mistake on the union's end, IMO. I cant stress that enough.

What you suggest would eliminate the only leverage that the CMR pilots would have to achieve gains in their CBA for several years to come. You want to correct a single issue (first year pay), while the MEC wants to correct dozens of issues with their concessionary contract. With this being the only leverage they'll have for years to fix their CBA, they can't give it up simply to correct something like first year pay. If management is forced to continue dealing with their staffing crisis for a while longer, then eventually they'll be forced back to the table to negotiate for a raise to first year pay along with fixing the rest of the agreement. If they give in to short-sightedness and agree to fix just this single issue, then they'll be stuck with their concessionary agreement for several more years. Captain Lawson and his MEC have handled this perfectly, as usual. They should be commended.

 

[meritflyer]

What you suggest would eliminate the only leverage that the CMR pilots would have to achieve gains in their CBA for several years to come. You want to correct a single issue (first year pay), while the MEC wants to correct dozens of issues with their concessionary contract. With this being the only leverage they'll have for years to fix their CBA, they can't give it up simply to correct something like first year pay. If management is forced to continue dealing with their staffing crisis for a while longer, then eventually they'll be forced back to the table to negotiate for a raise to first year pay along with fixing the rest of the agreement. If they give in to short-sightedness and agree to fix just this single issue, then they'll be stuck with their concessionary agreement for several more years. Captain Lawson and his MEC have handled this perfectly, as usual. They should be commended.

I hope you're right.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

No, no Max.

It's a little more broad than that. Having the mentality you described makes it okay to rip off pilots, No?

I believe it would've been a huge step in the right direction to fix a laundry list of things. It wouldn't fix all, but its a great start.

Not necessarily, fisrt year wages have always been low. And I agree with Zmiller.

Fixing first year pay for new hires, wouldn't have done nothing but give more money to new hires, and cause a rift in the pilot group.

Doing what I stated previously about raising rates all across the board, and giving 2nd year pilots and up a retro check, would work well.

That, or giving first year pilots a raise, and giving all 2nd year pilots and up a fat retro check!

Those two options would be the only fair options.

Failing to agree to either of those.

Tuff luck, and suck it up! Both to the company and any new hires.

 

[cre8flyer]

What are the HIGHEST priority items to fix in the Pilots / Management negotiation?

If first year FO pay is high on the list of priorities, then a solution should be welcomed.

If the union gets its way on this one, neither the first year FOs nor anyone else will get ahead because management isn't going to give everyone a big raise just yet.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

What are the HIGHEST priority items to fix in the Pilots / Management negotiation?

If first year FO pay is high on the list of priorities, then a solution should be welcomed.

First year pay is never high on the list of priorities. Wasting negotiating capital on a single year of pay for probationary pilots is not good strategy.

If the union gets its way on this one, neither the first year FOs nor anyone else will get ahead because management isn't going to give everyone a big raise just yet.

Management will do whatever it takes to keep the airline operating. When they get to the point that they can't attract enough new pilots (almost there now), then they'll offer the Association whatever is necessary in order to get what they need to attract new pilots. If they really need the raise in first year pay to attract new pilots, then they'll have to give everyone else fair wages and work rules also.

 

[deek]

I gotta go against the union on this one. Here is a union that is soo stubborn on their rules then can’t bend a little to win a battle that the management is openly handing them. They constantly want to win the war but won’t break a sweat to win a battle. And if they have to money to raise first year pay I highly doubt it’s the same to give everyone else a raise too, I think 5 year captains make quite a bit more. I would think the Union would take the raise as a win and then start fighting for more raises elsewhere. I know it would make 2nd year and up pilots upset, but where’s it going to give? The management isn’t going to just give up the kitchen sink in one sweep unless they really see pilots leaving due to pay, and how many pilots actually leave cause of pay? They stay cause they love to fly and the pay at the end is well worth it. And lets not forget enlisted privates in the military get paid less and sacrafice much more.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I gotta go against the union on this one. Here is a union that is soo stubborn on their rules then can’t bend a little to win a battle that the management is openly handing them. They constantly want to win the war but won’t break a sweat to win a battle.

You can win a thousand battles and still lose the war. This profession will only be brought back up with good long-term strategy.

I would think the Union would take the raise as a win and then start fighting for more raises elsewhere.

How can you fight with no leverage? We can't artificially create leverage. This leverage has dropped into our lap thanks to the latest hiring wave and the rules of supply/demand. To give up that leverage in order to make a small gain in a relatively minor area would be a monumental mistake.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Comair is teh suck.

Actually its about time the CMR MEC did something good for the industry. (the RJDC doesnt count)

Hopefully they are inching closer to their summer of '01 unity. One can at least hope, right?

PS, PCL 128 is one smart cookie.

 

[Airdale]

Let me just say that I do not believe first year pay should equal 2nd year pay. I believe the gap should be closer. As of right now, 1st yr at Comair is $22/hr, 2nd yr is $36/$34(700/100-200). Making the gap a little closer isn't such a bad idea.

Think about how many people don't make the jump to the airlines because of the low first year pay. Its barely livable.

I agree that ALL of the pilots should receive a raise across the board, but I don't really think that is what will attract new pilots. Comair has a shaky future at best, and this fact alone probably deters more people. Raising the pay across the scale will not attract an influx of new pilots, and would only cost the company more money, yet they would be in the same position.

I can definitely see both sides of the story here, and I think managements thinking was along the lines of trying to offer something to new pilots that other carriers don't. A starting salary of $25/hr or higher would certainly set them apart from the Regional crowd.

Ideally, first year pay would increase, and the rest of the pilot group would see a raise shortly there after as well.

Its a tough situation and honestly I'm kind of on the fence about it. First year pay sucks. You're part of a crew responsible for human lives everyday. The training and knowledge required is above and beyond your average job. There is NO reason anyone in this industry should be making less then $25,000 a year.

"Tough it out" and "Suck it up" are poor excuses for a low class wage and a response that I imagine management likes to hear.