wrxpilot
New Member
I just heard a guy doing that for the first time a couple of days ago... I thought it was pretty odd myself!
Instructing pet peeves.....
- Thread starter Goonie
- Start date
I just heard a guy doing that for the first time a couple of days ago... I thought it was pretty odd myself!
wrxpilot
New Member
That's a lot easier habit to break than having them not have their hand on the power during takeoff/landing. After their first really long x-xty, they'll pretty much be cured of it.
aviatormar
New Member
Patterns that are not square, this drives me insane, is that difficult to look outside and see where the wind is pushing you? Which leads me too....
Students/pilots who fly the airplane in the pattern by numbers (ie. I need to be at this altitude by this point, this decent rate by this point, this heading to fly downwind), LOOK AT THE RUNWAY, WHERE ARE YOU LANDING?!!!!!!!F&#K me that irks me beyond belief!!!!! Honestly, think of it for a min, just look at the runway, it has ALL the information you need, all pilots need is an airspeed indicator, even that isn't all that important if you listen and feel what the plane is doing, geez. This is all usually preceded by....
Student/pilots who feel the need to tell everyone their life story on the radio (Merced traffic, Cessna 69FU 182/G outbound on the ILS RUNWAY 30, procedure turn outbound past COOPZ intersection, full stop with the AWOS information, at 1300 feet desending to to traffic pattern altitude, looking for traffic on the downwind and we have the departing traffic in sight, Merced) GOOD GOD MAN YGBSM!!? What's next, your prognoisis of your gout over the radio? Care to share how that lanced cyst turn out for ya? Let's stop the verbal diarrea on the radios, shall we? The same guy usually ends up on approach like this....
If I hear tallyho on the radio once more, I'm going to puke, god who says that? Traffic in sight? TALLYHO!!!?!!! Your a dork who watches too much Top Gun and more then likey wears tight jean to show off your fupa. Maverick, time to grow up and say something intelligent, such as looking or insight, or, if you must, traffic insight. These same people are sometimes these....
When walking into a nice fbo, usually younger guys who rape/pilliage/abuse the free coffee/goodies there. Look jackals, your 8.3 gallon top off of 100LL prob wasn't in mind when managment put those out, take a cup and a cookie and be normal.
Students/pilots who fly the airplane in the pattern by numbers (ie. I need to be at this altitude by this point, this decent rate by this point, this heading to fly downwind), LOOK AT THE RUNWAY, WHERE ARE YOU LANDING?!!!!!!!F&#K me that irks me beyond belief!!!!! Honestly, think of it for a min, just look at the runway, it has ALL the information you need, all pilots need is an airspeed indicator, even that isn't all that important if you listen and feel what the plane is doing, geez. This is all usually preceded by....
Student/pilots who feel the need to tell everyone their life story on the radio (Merced traffic, Cessna 69FU 182/G outbound on the ILS RUNWAY 30, procedure turn outbound past COOPZ intersection, full stop with the AWOS information, at 1300 feet desending to to traffic pattern altitude, looking for traffic on the downwind and we have the departing traffic in sight, Merced) GOOD GOD MAN YGBSM!!? What's next, your prognoisis of your gout over the radio? Care to share how that lanced cyst turn out for ya? Let's stop the verbal diarrea on the radios, shall we? The same guy usually ends up on approach like this....
If I hear tallyho on the radio once more, I'm going to puke, god who says that? Traffic in sight? TALLYHO!!!?!!! Your a dork who watches too much Top Gun and more then likey wears tight jean to show off your fupa. Maverick, time to grow up and say something intelligent, such as looking or insight, or, if you must, traffic insight. These same people are sometimes these....
When walking into a nice fbo, usually younger guys who rape/pilliage/abuse the free coffee/goodies there. Look jackals, your 8.3 gallon top off of 100LL prob wasn't in mind when managment put those out, take a cup and a cookie and be normal.
aviatormar
New Member
Ohh no, the best my friend is when said student listens to 2 beeps on the morse code and says, sure that works it, tuned, idenifed and starts going the wrong way, whys that mikey? Cuz the NAVID is tranmitting a test but they got it right? And come on kids, let's use the squlch when setting up both our com and nav's, nothing is better then hearing some mubling cus word over tower or approach from the guy who has his radios turned too low.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
I like when they listen to the AWOS/ASOS/ATIS continually before taxiing. It loops like 5x and continues to play while they are taking their sweet time doing the checklist.
SoCalAprch
Well-Known Member
Pretty much everything my old Indian students did. They are good people but jeez I think my flight school got the batch of dropouts. Not saying it to be racist and I do get along well with them but good god. That being said Im sure some are decent but I haven't had the joy to fly with any of them...
How about just ignoring a procedure turn on a VOR approach. Student did it fine in a single even had to fly the approach on his Inst. checkride, but as soon as we get to a multi he thought that it didn't apply just hit the fix and make a right 150 degree turn inbound!!! Yee Haw...
anic:
Cheers...
How about just ignoring a procedure turn on a VOR approach. Student did it fine in a single even had to fly the approach on his Inst. checkride, but as soon as we get to a multi he thought that it didn't apply just hit the fix and make a right 150 degree turn inbound!!! Yee Haw...
anic:Cheers...
AngelFuree
Well-Known Member
OMFG!!! On the money! Very boring!
AngelFuree
Well-Known Member
Holy hell!! I need to meet you. We'd get along just great. I totally agree with you!
Ok, here's my list: (and notice I say pilots, because it's not only students, which is WAY sad)
-Pilots (not just students, because there are MANY pilots who don't know proper phraseology) who say "Roger" when an "Affirmative" is most appropriate. This was mentioned already above.
-Pilots who have no manners on the radios, are not appreciative of good service by ATC, and try talking with "surfer-dude" voices to sound cool. The whole pilot-with-no-manner thing I hate entirely.
-Pilots who read back IFR ATC clearances verbatim.
e.g. ATC: "------ You are five miles from the final approach fix, turn right heading 020, maintain 3000 until established on the localizer, cleared ILS 6 approach"
COOLDUDEPILOT: "Five miles from final approach, turn right heading 020....ugh....maintain 3000 until established on the loca...ugh..lizer...ugh............cleared ILS approach"
Realistically, all ATC needs to hear is, "right 020, 3000, cleared ILS 6."
Cuts time on the frequency, ATC will appreciate it, you will get better service for knowing what the hell you are doing, and you will not sound like a dumb student.
From my experience, ATC can be busy as hell, but you bet you'll get priority with practice requests if you know how to talk on the radios. Think before you talk on the radios and be secure.
-Ok, another one...pilots who are afraid of telling ATC, "Say again, please."
ATC will NOT kill you for asking them to repeat!!!!
They MUCH rather you ask them right away to "say again, please," than to have a 5 second gap on the radios waiting for you to reply.
-Another one...pilots who think it is ok to be off from your airspeed by 5 knots or be 50 feet above your altitude or being 11.7 DME on a 12 DME arc. No slacking!!!
-Pilots who have absolutely no sense of motion. Take care of your passengers! Don't jerk the airplane around!
-Pilots who cannot keep the airplane from pitching up or pitching down (T-tails) when adding flaps. HOLD PRESSURE ON THE YOKE and don't let the airplane jerk up and down. It's NOT hard. Trim the airplane after you add flaps. It is UNACCEPTABLE for any pilot to not have smooth control of the aircraft. Don't pull that flap handle as if you're doing 180 degree e-brake turns in that Honda.
-Pilots who heavily rely on instruments to determine what the airplane is doing (VMC, in IMC of course you need to rely on them). If you feel the airplane sinking, add a little bit of power.
-Students who cannot properly trim the aircraft. The way I drill it into them is I tell them, "I have flight controls," and don't actually take the yoke. The airplane either climbs up or descends. They then notice they didn't trim the aircraft.
Phew.....there are A LOT of things that I do not like seeing in pilots. People can get away with not flying the airplane smoothly in VFR, but when they're in the clouds, good luck! Luckily for me, I enjoy teaching instrument flying and believe my technique has worked amazingly well with my students.
By the way....this is what I preach to all pilots:
If the flight is boring, you are doing it right. There is no reason for a passenger to comment on your flying, because chances are that if they DO comment, it's not for something good. Don't try showing off your cool moves on a Piper Warrior. It's not an Extra 300.
AngelFuree
Well-Known Member
Whoa....I'm not sure what high performace aircraft you instruct in, but if you're teaching in what I'm teaching (which most instructors are, i.e. Piper or Cessna trainers) I'll have to COMPLETELY disagree with you.
Good luck flying IFR like that. Once you are stabilized and level, trim the aircraft for the airspeed. Adjust the power for your altitude. If you are level at 4100 feet, 100 knots and want to get back down to 4000 feet, there is NO reason for you to touch that yoke. Reduce power by a minute amount. You will retain your airspeed, the airplane will descend SMOOTHLY, and no one will ever notice.
If you can't control the throttle with precision to adjust your descent rate, then you should work on your precision skills. (I'm not attacking you in specific, I am throwing it out there for anyone)
It is AMAZING how smooth you can fly the airplane if you have proper power control. Don't rely on the RPM gauge either. Listen to the engine.
At the same time, I'm not saying I like seeing students have their hand on the throttle the whole entire time.
Keeping an aircraft level is a combination of trim and power. When talking about RPM, I mean changes like 20-30 RPM. It IS possible! Try it next time!
If you're going to trim the aircraft, do it with precision. Move the trim wheel one or two millimeters. That's all you need. Smoothness and precision!
I'll throw this tip to everyone out there who doesn't practice this already:
Next time you fly an ILS, stabilize your aircraft for the speed you want to fly it, trim it, intercept the ILS at the given altitude.
Don't touch the yoke except for lateral movements.
Control your descent rate and thus the glideslope with tiny power changes. You will fly legendary approaches. Challenge yourself to perfection!
However, don't try this in jets.
Don't think it would ever work. They fly much differently.Another pet peeve of mine:
Setting the GPS direct-to while on the ramp, and once airborne, instead of redrawing the line from present position, the position the plane over to when the first line is. I have a student that does this all the time. EVERY SINGLE time he does it, I tell him to draw a new line, but he never learns.
Similarly, I hate it when I tell a student to go direct to a VOR, and instead of retwisting, they just keep trying to correct to the same radial. I tell them whenever it gets full deflected, just re-center the needle, and fly the heading plus or minus any wind.
This technique works well in a Cessna or maybe a Piper, but not all aircraft react this way. If you're cruising at 2300 RPM in a Cessna 152 at 95 knots, and then you pull the power back, the nose will drop and the airspeed will remain 95. If you slowly add the power back, the airspeed will still remain 95, and the nose will start to rise. Of course this only works as long as you pull the power slowly, otherwise you'll get oscillations. Using the just the throttle to keep the plane level and trimmed is a good way to stay stabilized in certain airplanes - Although I've flown airplanes that don't drop their nose when power is reduced, instead they keep altitude, and lose airspeed.
Setting the GPS direct-to while on the ramp, and once airborne, instead of redrawing the line from present position, the position the plane over to when the first line is. I have a student that does this all the time. EVERY SINGLE time he does it, I tell him to draw a new line, but he never learns.
Similarly, I hate it when I tell a student to go direct to a VOR, and instead of retwisting, they just keep trying to correct to the same radial. I tell them whenever it gets full deflected, just re-center the needle, and fly the heading plus or minus any wind.
This technique works well in a Cessna or maybe a Piper, but not all aircraft react this way. If you're cruising at 2300 RPM in a Cessna 152 at 95 knots, and then you pull the power back, the nose will drop and the airspeed will remain 95. If you slowly add the power back, the airspeed will still remain 95, and the nose will start to rise. Of course this only works as long as you pull the power slowly, otherwise you'll get oscillations. Using the just the throttle to keep the plane level and trimmed is a good way to stay stabilized in certain airplanes - Although I've flown airplanes that don't drop their nose when power is reduced, instead they keep altitude, and lose airspeed.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
I hated working with "career" instructors that had no other experience besides instructing.
That's fair for all of about 6 months, but after that . . . :banghead:
That's fair for all of about 6 months, but after that . . . :banghead:
jrh
Well-Known Member
I think it's sort of ironic that you talk about using proper phraseology here:
But don't use it yourself, here:
This is actually one of my pet peeves, hearing pilots cut *too much* out of their readbacks. Saying "right 020, 3000, cleared ILS 6" is too abbreviated and can cause confusion. I'm not a big fan of reading back a clearance word for word, but there is a middle ground.
I would say, "Right turn heading zero two zero, maintain 3000, cleared ILS six approach, Cessna 123."
It doesn't matter how busy the controller is, readbacks always need to be clear. It's better to get it right 100% of the time than to be fast, but cause confusion occasionally.
But don't use it yourself, here:
This is actually one of my pet peeves, hearing pilots cut *too much* out of their readbacks. Saying "right 020, 3000, cleared ILS 6" is too abbreviated and can cause confusion. I'm not a big fan of reading back a clearance word for word, but there is a middle ground.
I would say, "Right turn heading zero two zero, maintain 3000, cleared ILS six approach, Cessna 123."
It doesn't matter how busy the controller is, readbacks always need to be clear. It's better to get it right 100% of the time than to be fast, but cause confusion occasionally.
AngelFuree
Well-Known Member
Where would the confusion be in that case?
You're only being vectored to intercept the final approach course. I'm all for learning, please explain where the confusion may be.I'm already telling the controller in which direction the turn should be initiated, that's one of the important parts. I mention the altitude to keep, and I read back my clearance to fly the X-approach.
Now, if you're cleared for a DME arc, and don't read back the details, that may be too short. (e.g. cleared for the 12 DME arc, arc southwest, etc etc)
AngelFuree
Well-Known Member
Definitely true. I guess I was incorrectly assuming students training in a typical Cessna 152/172 or Piper Warrior/Arrow.
jrh
Well-Known Member
Where would the confusion be in that case?
I'm already telling the controller in which direction the turn should be initiated, that's one of the important parts. I mention the altitude to keep, and I read back my clearance to fly the X-approach.
In your specific example, it's probably clear enough, but you could still get in trouble depending on how you say it.
Let's suppose you got distracted by something in the cockpit and hesitated a little during your readback. You might say, "Right zero two........zero...three thousand, cleared ILS six approach."
Ok, you just read everything back correctly (all the numbers are there, at least) but the controller might interpret your hesitation as confusion over what you're supposed to do. It could have been heard as an incomplete heading ("Right zero to...what heading did he say?") and an impossible altitude ("Zero three thousand.")
Maybe this wouldn't confuse the controller enough to query you, but it might make him pause and think about it long enough to waste the time you saved by cutting out a few words.
And there are many other cases where it could cause more confusion. I just consider it a bad habit (and nonstandard phraseology) to only readback numbers without putting in "break" words to identify what you're reading back.
Incorporating words like "heading," "maintain," "descend," "climbing," "leaving," "squawk," etc. cue the listeners in to what you're about to say. Otherwise it just becomes a jumble of numbers.
For instance, when reading back an initial IFR clearance (CRAFT), many pilots will get something like this. Read everything out loud:
C -- Cessna 12345, Cleared to the Springfield Municiple airport
R -- As filed
A -- Maintain 5000, expect 8,000 ten minutes after departure
F -- Departure frequency 124.8
T -- Squawk 1234
And they'll read it back like this:
"Cleared to Springfield as filed, five thousand then eight after ten, one two four point eight, one two three four, three four five."
When they should say something more like:
"Cleared to Springfield as filed, maintain five thousand, expect eight thousand one zero minutes after departure, frequency is one two four point eight, squawk one two three four, Cessna three four five."
That might be a bit of an extreme example, but hopefully it illustrates my point. Numbers have a tendency to "run together" unless key words are dropped into place.
So it's not a huge deal, but it's something to consider, especially when we as instructors need to model good phraseology to our students. Controllers are held to an extremely high standards for phraseology when training to be a controller, and I wished more pilots were held to similar standards when it comes to communications.
AngelFuree
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply, I understand what you're trying to get at.
When I read back my clearances, (e.g. Right 0-2-0, Three Thousand, Cleared ILS 6) I like keeping the number clusters together. If I'm distracted at all in the cockpit, I'll immediately ask ATC to "say again, please." I tell my students they should never be guessing what ATC told them to do. They should use "verify -----------, please." I really really really avoid doing the whole "ugh....0-2-...ugh..." I'll just quickly ask them to repeat it again so I don't have to play the whole, "ugh....ugh..." game.
I don't teach my students to read back clearances the way I do. They do a good job for the most part. I have yet to have any problems with ATC, but am not saying I won't in the future, so I definitely appreciate the feedback.
As to the CRADS/CRAFT readback, that, I do make sure to have my students read it back in its entirety.
Ok, I'll add another pet peeve:
-Students who read back with their callsign first. (e.g. "Piper ----- turn right heading 090; instead, "Turn right heading 090, Piper ----")
It's as if they were ATC giving themselves instructions.
jrh
Well-Known Member
When I read back my clearances, (e.g. Right 0-2-0, Three Thousand, Cleared ILS 6) I like keeping the number clusters together. If I'm distracted at all in the cockpit, I'll immediately ask ATC to "say again, please." I tell my students they should never be guessing what ATC told them to do. They should use "verify -----------, please." I really really really avoid doing the whole "ugh....0-2-...ugh..." I'll just quickly ask them to repeat it again so I don't have to play the whole, "ugh....ugh..." game.
That's all good, but it wasn't quite what I meant by being distracted. There are times when a passenger will ask a question, or you'll see traffic you weren't expecting, or any number of things that could pop up and interrupt your train of thought while the mic is keyed. That's the kind of thing that could make you pause in the middle of a radio transmission, no matter how good you are on the radios.
Just remember that actions speak louder than words. It's almost scary sometimes how students mimic the actions of the instructor. The way they hear their instructor talk will oftentimes be how they begin talking.
It's all good. It's hard to draw a firm line on this kind of thing because tons of pilots do it and almost everybody gets away with it. That's another reason it's so hard to teach proper phraseology, because students are constantly surrounded by *improper* phraseology.
Ok, I'll add another pet peeve:
-Students who read back with their callsign first. (e.g. "Piper ----- turn right heading 090; instead, "Turn right heading 090, Piper ----")
It's as if they were ATC giving themselves instructions.
Actually, "callsign first" is an acceptable way to do it. I don't have an AIM with me at the moment, but I know it's talked about in there somewhere.