Question about logging time with friends

jordan747_400

jordan747_400

Well-Known Member
Just a few questions about logging time when I fly with another private pilot. If we both share the flying, how do we log the flight time. Do we both log PIC time? Also, does safety pilot time only count if one of us is flying under the hood and the other isnt or do we apply that to normal VFR flying as well? How would I even log safety pilot time as a private pilot if I were to act as a safety pilot to someone? Dont think my logbook even has a column for it.

Thanks for your help!
 
I'm positive somebody is going to disagree with me here, but I'll go ahead and give it a shot:

Do you need a safety pilot and have one pilot under the hood to have you both log PIC time? No

Well then? How can you do it? Start with what the definition of PIC is. PIC is the one responsible for the aircraft being used and is directly responsible for the safety of the flight (No, thats not verbatim out of the FARs but the general gist is there)

So, before you start flying...you designate one person as pilot in command.

BUT in part 61, there are other ways listed to log PIC time! If you are the sole manipulator of the controls, this person can also log PIC time! No hood involved.

So, one pilot is responsible for the safety of the flight and is PIC...the other one is manipulating the controls. Bingo, both pilots log PIC.
 
PIC seems like one of those things were no matter how hard a concrete definition is tried for, it's always open to interpretation.
 
I wouldn't even consider logging PIC in a situation where the other pilot logs PIC also. The only possibility is if the pilot under the hood is instrument rated, then you both can. But then this practice is sometimes not respected.

When in doubt, log PIC when you, and only you are flying.:)
 
It should be whoever is flying logs the time.





Period.



You can use the loopholes all you want, but you know the intention of the regulations. Double logging for safety pilot time is shady enough, trying to get away with both people logging PIC in this situation (and I know people do it) is asking for trouble down the road. (Imo).

It's the same situation to me as to the noise abatement trainwreck thread earlier. You know the intention of the wording, even if you can dance around it.
 
Swen said:
I wouldn't even consider logging PIC in a situation where the other pilot logs PIC also. The only possibility is if the pilot under the hood is instrument rated, then you both can. But then this practice is sometimes not respected.

When in doubt, log PIC when you, and only you are flying.:)
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Thats just rediculous, and I wish I had my FAR/AIM with me right now. What about when a flight instructor is giving dual? He/She logs PIC, and so does the student if they're appropriately rated in the airplane. There are multiple ways of logging PIC time and unfortunately I cant look it up and get the reg right now...
 
Flight instruction is completely different.

Yes, you can log PIC if another person is a sole manipulator of the controls IF more than one crewmember is required for the flight (by cert/or actions). If someone is using foggles, it's kosher enough so long as you are truly acting as PIC as safety pilot. The flight is then your responsibility (and the FAA will agree if something goes wrong).

As far as two PPLs. Someone can ACT as PIC all the want. It doesn't mean they can LOG it.
 
Well, thats why Im here asking these questions. From the responses so far Ill probably play it safe and we will split PIC time rather than both share it. My reason far asking was that I am trying to build my x-ctry hours to start Instrument training and since money is tight Id like to not spend too much of it on too many hours that I cant really log. Either way though it will still be fun and still be good experience.
 
jordan747_400 said:
Well, thats why Im here asking these questions. From the responses so far Ill probably play it safe and we will split PIC time rather than both share it. My reason far asking was that I am trying to build my x-ctry hours to start Instrument training and since money is tight Id like to not spend too much of it on too many hours that I cant really log. Either way though it will still be fun and still be good experience.
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Understandable about the money, dooood.
 
BTW: I'll look it up for you:

61.51:

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
[(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person--
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;]
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; (doesn't apply here)
o
(iii) is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
 
jordan747_400 said:
Well, thats why Im here asking these questions. From the responses so far Ill probably play it safe and we will split PIC time rather than both share it. My reason far asking was that I am trying to build my x-ctry hours to start Instrument training and since money is tight Id like to not spend too much of it on too many hours that I cant really log. Either way though it will still be fun and still be good experience.
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Just have a blast. Go somewhere fun, I did!
 
jordan747_400 said:
Well, thats why Im here asking these questions. From the responses so far Ill probably play it safe and we will split PIC time rather than both share it. My reason far asking was that I am trying to build my x-ctry hours to start Instrument training and since money is tight Id like to not spend too much of it on too many hours that I cant really log. Either way though it will still be fun and still be good experience.
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BTW, I don't know if it's legal for both of you to log the flight shared (like you split the flight and each log half). Someone should clarify that.

I just think that's the way it should be.
 
If both pilots are rated in the aircraft, and the sole manipulator is under the hood, then both pilots can log PIC. The person under the hood does not need to be an instrument rated pilot.


Only one of you had better log the landing:D

jordan747_400 said:
Well, thats why Im here asking these questions. From the responses so far Ill probably play it safe and we will split PIC time rather than both share it. My reason far asking was that I am trying to build my x-ctry hours to start Instrument training and since money is tight Id like to not spend too much of it on too many hours that I cant really log. Either way though it will still be fun and still be good experience.
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Go ahead and practice under the hood. Fly VOR to VOR or GPS and control the airplane through descents, climbs and course changes. Then when you do your IFR training you will be focused on the rules and procedures and flying will be second nature. You can still log the time under the hood as a safety pilot, as long as you or your friend are under the hood.

Have fun and stay safe.
 
bumblebee said:
If both pilots are rated in the aircraft, and the sole manipulator is under the hood, then both pilots can log PIC. The person under the hood does not need to be an instrument rated pilot.
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Good catch. I somehow assumed he would go blasting through clouds...:buck:
 
The only way for two guys to log PIC is for one to be sole manipulator (under the hood), and the other to be safety pilot. It's a loophole, but one that is often used to build time. I think there is a place for a small amount of this time, especially in a twin (maybe 20 hours). The only way two guys can log the time is if it's necessary to have a safety pilot (per the FAR's). If you're in the clouds, you don't need a safety pilot. If you're not under the hood, you don't need a safety pilot.
 
JDMcFly said:
(iii) is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
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Well, maybe I was wrong about the no-hood, but according to this part of the reg if one is under the hood, the other becomes required under the regs that the flight is conducted (safety pilot required) and can then log PIC time... (as bumblebee said)

I'm not disagreeing with you, just sorta thinking out loud. I'll ask about it tomorrow from people that are vastly more experienced than myself.
 
kfour said:
Well, maybe I was wrong about the no-hood, but according to this part of the reg if one is under the hood, the other becomes required under the regs that the flight is conducted (safety pilot required) and can then log PIC time... (as bumblebee said)
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Pretty much. IDK if the situation is okay with both pilots as PPLs or not, someone would have to really clarify. Safety time logging is a little shady but many, many places utilize it and it is legal.
 
Log your safety pilot time as PIC, your a required crew member doing a spacific job the pilot flying can't do. Just do yourself a favor, really fly under the hood, just loging it won't do anything for your piloting skills.
 
addicted2flyN said:
Log your safety pilot time as PIC, your a required crew member doing a spacific job the pilot flying can't do. Just do yourself a favor, really fly under the hood, just loging it won't do anything for your piloting skills.
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:yeahthat: If you are in VFR conditions, you are required to maintain your own visual separation from other aircraft. If the guy flying is under the hood, he cannot maintain visual separation, and you are a required crew member.

I think the regs used to specifically refer to the safety pilot as "being able to log SIC," but I haven't been able to find that in the current edition and am thinking it may have been taken out. Can anyone else vouch for this?

Also, I'm pretty sure every big academy in the country does this a lot. Surely one of them would have been called on it by now if it wasn't acceptable.
 
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