Question about logging time with friends

[MidlifeFlyer]

Well then? How can you do it? Start with what the definition of PIC is. PIC is the one responsible for the aircraft being used and is directly responsible for the safety of the flight (No, thats not verbatim out of the FARs but the general gist is there)

So, before you start flying...you designate one person as pilot in command.

BUT in part 61, there are other ways listed to log PIC time! If you are the sole manipulator of the controls, this person can also log PIC time! No hood involved.

So, one pilot is responsible for the safety of the flight and is PIC...the other one is manipulating the controls. Bingo, both pilots log PIC.

Nope. Here's the mistake. 61.51 doesn't present "other ways to log PIC time." It presents the =only= ways to log PIC time. Even if you are the acting PIC on a flight, you still need to fit into a 61.51 cubbyhole to log it as PIC.

Take a look at the part of 61.51 that talks about a pilot logging PIC when acting as PIC on an aircraft or in an operation that requires more than one pilot. Then look at the part that talks about how an ATP can log the time whenever acting as PIC on a flight that requires a PIC. If you were correct, those two subparts of 61.51 would be completely unnecessary.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Just a few questions about logging time when I fly with another private pilot. If we both share the flying, how do we log the flight time. Do we both log PIC time? Also, does safety pilot time only count if one of us is flying under the hood and the other isnt or do we apply that to normal VFR flying as well? How would I even log safety pilot time as a private pilot if I were to act as a safety pilot to someone? Dont think my logbook even has a column for it.

Thanks for your help!

Check out my logging flight time FAQ at http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=2

I think it answers your questions.

 

[dc3flyer]

Log it Dude....

You are not going to be asked to explain every flight and how you got the flight time. If you think you can log it, then log it. Are you getting flight experience? Then log it. Are you sitting in thr back of a 747? Then don't log it!

 

[moxiepilot]

Log it Dude....

You are not going to be asked to explain every flight and how you got the flight time. If you think you can log it, then log it. Are you getting flight experience? Then log it. Are you sitting in thr back of a 747? Then don't log it!

uh....no.

i'd listen to midlife's posts among others and ignore dc3's post.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Log it Dude....

You are not going to be asked to explain every flight and how you got the flight time. If you think you can log it, then log it. Are you getting flight experience? Then log it. Are you sitting in thr back of a 747? Then don't log it!

That's kind of a slap in the face to those of us who are doing it the legal way.

 

[clumpinglitter]

That's kind of a slap in the face to those of us who are doing it the legal way.

Yeah, as it is, it's bad enough to have to compete against people logging illegal PIC time and doing illegal 135 flights. At least don't go around encouraging more people to log fake time. :whatever: "If you think you can log it, then log it" -- you've got to be ####### me.

-Christine

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Yeah, as it is, it's bad enough to have to compete against people logging illegal PIC time and doing illegal 135 flights. At least don't go around encouraging more people to log fake time. :whatever: "If you think you can log it, then log it" -- you've got to be ####### me.

-Christine

Let's face it. Aviation is no different than anything else. For some folks it's about getting it right. For others it's about not getting caught

 

[dc3flyer]

What are we talking about here, an hour... maybe 1.5.... two hours tops???? How is 1 hour going to make a difference? He is in a pilot's station and he is rated and current in the plane. He is flying a portion of the trip, I'm sure. He is not just a knot on a log along for the ride.

 

[clumpinglitter]

What are we talking about here, an hour... maybe 1.5.... two hours tops???? How is 1 hour going to make a difference?

If it's so inconsequential, then don't log it. Keep your logbook legal and honest. Don't screw your fellow pilots. Personal integrity is worth more than PIC time. Or, at least, it should be. :banghead:

-C.

 

[E6BAV8R]

What are we talking about here, an hour... maybe 1.5.... two hours tops???? How is 1 hour going to make a difference? He is in a pilot's station and he is rated and current in the plane. He is flying a portion of the trip, I'm sure. He is not just a knot on a log along for the ride.

He said he is building time for his cross-country requirements; so I am assuming more than 1 or 1.5.

Either way, he can log PIC when he is actually flying the leg. When he is sitting in the seat staring out the window I would say he isn't doing much flying.

It's a sad belief for what some people actually interpret as a "gray" area and they full well know the intentions of the FARs.

 

[daru1]

End all... Be all:

First, PIC is logged when you are safety pilot or pilot flying of one of those light planes (you're not flying a plane the has to have two pilots).

Example -- Cessnas, Pipers, Whatever: Person on the left under the hood... Person on the right can log PIC if in VFR conditions (VMC). Both must be at least PP, no instrument rating required). Don't even try this under IMC because it's illegal - the person on the right isn't required.

Second, sole-manipulator is what gives us the right to log PIC after we've gotten our PP, and we're receiving instruction for further ratings/certificates.

Third, I'm very happy to see that at least one of you is advocating flying with a safety pilot under the hood after getting the PP certificate. If you are dedicated enough and have some basic understanding, it will help you not only in knowledge when doing your instrument training, but it can help you out financially. I did 25 hours safety pilot time with a PP, all cross-country (basically flying to an airport 50 miles away and doing approaches), and did almost the minimum 15 hours with an instructor to cover my 40 hours required by : 61.65

(d) Aeronautical experience. A person who applies for an instrument rating must have logged the following:
(1) At least 50 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command, of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes for an instrument -- airplane rating; and
(2) A total of 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time on the areas of operation of this section, to include--
(i) At least 15 hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in the aircraft category for which the instrument rating is sought;
(ii) At least 3 hours of instrument training that is appropriate to the instrument rating sought from an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the 60 days preceding the date of the test;

I'm not saying this method is for everyone, but it saved me 25 hours of dual. I got to split that time with another PP, helping him build cross country time for his commercial. Just to add $0.01 to my already given... I had been flying Flight Simulator for 16 years before I had gotten my instrument, so that might have helped a little
​

 

[tonyw]

Double logging for safety pilot time is shady enough, trying to get away with both people logging PIC in this situation (and I know people do it) is asking for trouble down the road. (Imo).

Why is this asking for trouble? The regs specifically say you can log safety pilot as PIC time and it makes perfect sense why -- a guy flying around with a hood on without someone looking out for traffic is a real danger, wouldn't you say?

Also, once you get your private ticket, you can log PIC time even if you're receiving instruction and the instructor can log it, too. Why wouldn't you do this?

For me, it's the can you look at yourself in the mirror test. If you can log the time and do that without feeling guilty, do it.

 

[JHines]

Why is this asking for trouble? The regs specifically say you can log safety pilot as PIC time and it makes perfect sense why -- a guy flying around with a hood on without someone looking out for traffic is a real danger, wouldn't you say?

<snip>

My thoughts exactly. I've seen this same kind of response (from many folks, not picking on anyone) to the time-logging question on JC for four years now, despite it being bashed to death. There are two questions to ask:

(1) is logging this time permitted unders the FARs?

(2) is this time "quality" time in the eyes of a potential future employer?

A lot of the answers on JC don't distinguish those two things. Anybody asking a logging question here needs to keep that in mind.

Also, the dual use of "PIC" causes horrible brain lock for a lot of folks. Maybe it's time for a revision to 61.51 with a "PF" category.

 

[Bumblebee]

Pretty much. IDK if the situation is okay with both pilots as PPLs or not, someone would have to really clarify. Safety time logging is a little shady but many, many places utilize it and it is legal.

I don't get why you say this is shady. It's clearly in the regs. I have quite a bit of safety pilot time in my book, and there were no issues at any of the interviews I went on, or with the FAA. Not shady . . . OK?

Look, if you have an opportunity to practice skills in VFR under the hood do it. Any time . . . as much as you want. Split the sole manipulator time with your buddy so you both get the practice and tear it up. I do not see the problem here.. (OK calm down . . . everything is going to be fine)

That is all

 

[JDMcFly]

Why is this asking for trouble?

Uhm... To clarify, I was saying that both pilots logging PIC (not under the hood) was asking for trouble...

Read the rest of my posts in the thread.

As for the other thing, some people do think it is a little shady (a bunch of safety pilot time). Maybe shady is a bit strong a word. Nowhere am I saying that flying under the hood with a safety pilot is a bad thing, nor did I say logging it as such is against the rules or illegal (in fact, I stated the opposite).

My major point IS that if you are going to log PIC as safety pilot, you MUST act as PIC and be (legally) responsible for the flight, not just sitting in the seat looking for traffic (or reading a book..). It isn't 'I'm a required crew member, I can log PIC', it is 'I'm a required crewmember, and I am acting as PIC, so I can log PIC'

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

My major point IS that if you are going to log PIC as safety pilot, you MUST act as PIC and be (legally) responsible for the flight, not just sitting in the seat looking for traffic (or reading a book..). It isn't 'I'm a required crew member, I can log PIC', it is 'I'm a required crewmember, and I am acting as PIC, so I can log PIC'

Your major point IS absolutely correct.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Short and sweet answer, which is supported by FAA opinion:

Both pilots log PIC. One pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls, the other is under the hood. The other is the PIC of the flight, meaning he takes responsibility for the flight and acts as safety pilot.