Checklist reliance

TFaudree_ERAU

TFaudree_ERAU

Mashin' dem buttons
As some of you may know, I recently landed my first jet job. I fly for a Part 91 flight department in a Lear 55. The captain I fly with is very experienced (18,000 hours) and has experience in a Lear 55 and 60, Falcon 20 and 900, Gulfstream II and III and a few other airplanes here and there. He is an awesome guy; someone I get along with very well. We always have fun on trips but keep a very professional attitude when I comes to operating the airplane.

There is one thing I have an issue with though, and I wanted to see what input you guys had as well as any suggestions on addressing the situation. Let me first start off with my background. As my forum handle says, I went to Embry-Riddle. From day one we were drilled on "flows, flows, flows...and back it up with a checklist"; if you don't know your flows, you won't make it through training. Prior to graduation, I completed the CRJ-200 CRM course (five weeks of ground school and 20 hours in a Level 6 FTD). Not only was it an intro to jet systems and techniques, but also taught and stressed all aspects of CRM, right down to the flow and challenge/response methods.

Fast forward to now. The training instilled in me at ERAU has stayed with me up to this point. Even when flying a 210 every night with Flight Express, it was the same practice of flow and checklist. Anyway, now that I'm at this job, I seem to have a problem with getting the captain to have the same mentality about flows and checklists.

When I'm PNF, everything except the after start, before taxi and taxi checklists are accomplished only after I prompt him to begin them. I'll literally pick up the book and start reading it as we get within range of the destination. Today I did a little experiment to see how close we'd get to the airport before he asked for the approach checklist; 10 miles from the field was about a long as I could wait before I picked it up and started reading. Then when I do start it, its almost as if he is concentrating so hard on flying the airplane (at 5000 feet and 210 knots) that what I'm saying goes in one ear and out the other. I call for the altimeter setting check, and I wait...and wait...and wait...and finally just go ahead and say "3003 set on standby and my side". When the approach checklist is complete, I give him a little "verbal nudge" by saying "approach checklist complete, before landing is next". However, as we turn to final I pick it up and just have to start reading through the before landing checklist. After finishing that up, at 500 feet, he FINALLY calls for the before landing checklist. All I could say is "thats already done, we're cleared to land."

Then when I'm PF...thats a whole different ballgame. I don't even have time to call for a checklist before he's running through it doing it himself. Sometimes he waits for a response from me, sometimes he just responds to his own challenge; no rhyme or reason to it. I just let him go about doing it and then double check to make sure everything is done.

So, my question to you guys is this...
How do I address this situation. Here I am at 1000 hours and wanting to tell this 18,000 hour pilot that he needs to change his ways.

Or is this the norm in corporate aviation? Is the whole flow and challenge/response checklist process not stressed in the corporate world. I know you'd get kicked right off the flight line if you ever did something like that at NetJets or a 121 carrier.

Do I say something about it, and how to I say it? I will admit that he has been very receptive to all of my input regarding the our interaction and has told me in the past (if I'm PF) something like "hey, you're in charge on this leg, you just tell me how you want it to be."

Thoughts?
 
Where I'm at it is the standard flow - back it up with a checklist. Challenge / response or silent as appropriate. Years ago I ran into something similiar. We seemed to have a mutual respect for each other (sounds similiar to your situation) so I asked him about using the checklists appropriately and per profile requirement. At first he was kind of quiet about it - then he said that he had done it a thousand times and new them by heart. Even though I had the flows down to the letter, I told him it would help me significantly if we could do them consistantly - and I would to be able to learn from his experience. Kind of put the onus on him being the senior guy as well as I'm sure stroking his ego a bit to help "further advance the skills of the FO'. Anyway - after that it was by the book and everything was hunky dory. Just remember to approach it in a very politically correct way. It sounds like you have to fly alot with this guy and your don't want any resentment in the cockpit. Sometimes 15,000 hour guys can be a little crusty. Hope this help a little.



Max
 
And for gosh sakes, don't tell him what checklist is "next".

That's a personal pet peeve. We all know what checklist comes next. Verbalizing it is wasted words.

"After takeoff check is complete, ten thousand foot checklist is next..."
"Cruise checklist is next..."
"Descent checklist is next..."

oooh! oooh! What comes after that? The anticipation is killing me? <grin>

Seriously. Just say, "Approach checklist complete". Don't insult the guy by assuming he can't remember the name of the checklist to follow.
 
When you go preflight a 172 do you carry the checklist around the airplane? If so, do you actually use it?

To this captain, a Lear 55 is no different than a 172. He has flown it so much, and is so familiar with it, he thinks he doesn't need a checklist, and he may not.

I would go with the let's use them so I can learn more method.
 
To this captain, a Lear 55 is no different than a 172. He has flown it so much, and is so familiar with it, he thinks he doesn't need a checklist, and he may not.
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I'm not quite sure what you mean so maybe I'm misunderstanding the above text. Please correct me if so. It doesn't matter how well one know's an airplane, a checklist MUST be used for consistant safe operation, especially in transport catagory airplanes. Checklists don't forget.;)
 
Sounds to me like he's leaving it up to your discretion. About half the guys here are like that too. I don't think there is anything wrong with it.
 
I've flown with a Captain that was like that too. It was only for a few days, so I definitely wasn't going to say anything, but I did what you do and just read/do it silently just to make sure I stay standardized.

In your case, if you think he is endangering you or your pax, then definitely try to mention it as if you're asking for it to help you develop as a pilot. If he really knows what he's doing, just back up his work with your checklist.

On our checklists, there are items that are extremely important, and for those we have flows, backed up by checklists. You know which items are serious, so verify he has completed those by reading your checklist (silently if you want). Tough situation, but thats the only advice I can give.
 
An 18,000 hour pilot has no more right to the title "professional pilot" than you do. Many many high time pilots have made NTSB reports and not in a favorable way. My suggestion is that you establish minimum acceptable safety standards for yourself and do not cross them - EVER!!!!!
If this chap is unwilling to fly to your standards, and I suggest you set them high, it is time to look for another job. And don't let anybody tell you that someone is so good and has flown the airplane so long that they don't need a checklist. Lack of proper checklist usage is lack of professionalism in my eyes.
 
dc3flyer said:
When you go preflight a 172 do you carry the checklist around the airplane? If so, do you actually use it?

To this captain, a Lear 55 is no different than a 172. He has flown it so much, and is so familiar with it, he thinks he doesn't need a checklist, and he may not.

I would go with the let's use them so I can learn more method.
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I respectfully disagree with your thinking. Aircraft safety standards have evolved from people screwing up and killing themselves, and usually others. Pilots develop this notion that checklist usage is some kind of a crutch and they tend to think that it takes something away from this macho image they create for themselves. This is flawed thinking at it's finest. The very best and most professional pilots in all of aviation all embrace using checklists religiously. Those who choose not to use them are simply peeling back a layer of safety. It's really that simple!
 
calcapt said:
I respectfully disagree with your thinking. Aircraft safety standards have evolved from people screwing up and killing themselves, and usually others. Pilots develop this notion that checklist usage is some kind of a crutch and they tend to think that it takes something away from this macho image they create for themselves. This is flawed thinking at it's finest. The very best and most professional pilots in all of aviation all embrace using checklists religiously. Those who choose not to use them are simply peeling back a layer of safety. It's really that simple!
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:yeahthat: X 1,000,000

There is no excuse for his behavior, especially if your company has standardized procedures which call for checklist usage (and I'd be very surprised if it didn't!)...


Kevin
 
In almost all cases, I can gage how good a pilot is simply by how they conduct the before start checklist...before the airplane is even airborne.
 
I'm a firm believer in making a checklist a check list, not a to-do list. Around here, we're the kind of guys that start the engines and do the before taxi checks without using a checklist and then before taxiing, go through the checklists to make sure we've accomplished everything. Is there anything wrong with doing it what way? No. I also don't think it's the end of the world if the captain doesn't call for every single checklist. You're both part of the crew, you both know what is going to come next. If I'm in the right seat and we're cleared for takeoff, should I just sit there on my ass waiting for the PF to call for the lineup checklist? No, just do it and then look at the checklist to make sure you've done it and then say the checklist is complete.

Both pilots are part of the crew, work together as a crew. We may not do it the airline way, but we're still safe.

All of that being said, now that we have a new airplane, its going to end up being a to-do list for awhile, but getting the hang of a flow shouldn't take too long.
 
Travis, thanks for bringing this subject to JC man. I used your issue as one of my main talking points in regards to dealing with a Captain, who acts like this, in a CRM discussion this past week.
 
JDE said:
I'm a firm believer in making a checklist a check list, not a to-do list. Around here, we're the kind of guys that start the engines and do the before taxi checks without using a checklist and then before taxiing, go through the checklists to make sure we've accomplished everything. Is there anything wrong with doing it what way? No. I also don't think it's the end of the world if the captain doesn't call for every single checklist. You're both part of the crew, you both know what is going to come next. If I'm in the right seat and we're cleared for takeoff, should I just sit there on my ass waiting for the PF to call for the lineup checklist? No, just do it and then look at the checklist to make sure you've done it and then say the checklist is complete.

Both pilots are part of the crew, work together as a crew. We may not do it the airline way, but we're still safe.

All of that being said, now that we have a new airplane, its going to end up being a to-do list for awhile, but getting the hang of a flow shouldn't take too long.
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I agree completely, however, I do believe that checklists should be called for by the PF. Definitely a checklist and not a to do list though which I'm pretty sure how it's looked upon and used at the airlines as well.
 
JDE said:
No, just do it and then look at the checklist to make sure you've done it and then say the checklist is complete.
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Read my original post and notice that I say that I've done it this way in the past, and then we get a few more miles up the road and the CA asks for the same checklist that I had just announced as being completed. Thats my biggest concern/complaint. It seems as though he is in his own world, not paying attention to whats going on around him and not listening to ANYTHING I say. I start to ask myself why I'm even there sometimes.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Read my original post and notice that I say that I've done it this way in the past, and then we get a few more miles up the road and the CA asks for the same checklist that I had just announced as being completed. Thats my biggest concern/complaint. It seems as though he is in his own world, not paying attention to whats going on around him and not listening to ANYTHING I say. I start to ask myself why I'm even there sometimes.
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I do this all the time. My FO will say "_________ checklist complete" and a few moments later I will confirm with him or ask for such checklist. Sometimes I'll ask him twice because there is a lot going on and the information hasn't registered. It gets extremely busy at times, especially when flying with an inexperienced FO. I don't know why you would have a concern or complaint about this, this is how it works and the way it goes sometimes. As the captain I want to be certain that everything has been completed, so if I have to ask if a checklist or other task has been completed more than once then that's the way it goes.:)
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Read my original post and notice that I say that I've done it this way in the past, and then we get a few more miles up the road and the CA asks for the same checklist that I had just announced as being completed. Thats my biggest concern/complaint. It seems as though he is in his own world, not paying attention to whats going on around him and not listening to ANYTHING I say. I start to ask myself why I'm even there sometimes.
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How often does it happen that way? I'm with jonnyb, sometimes I'll have to ask if things have been done, or if we've been cleared to land. It does get hectic at times. If it happens ALL the time, well, that may be a different story.
 
JDE said:
How often does it happen that way?
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Its happening on, I'd say, eight out of ten flights.
The other day, he asked for the before landing checklist 3 times in a matter of 45 seconds.

I appreciate all you guys inputs. I've come to the conclusion now that I'll just have to put up with it or leave the job (the latter of which I'm certainly not going to do) and that it does happen this way among other flight crews.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Its happening on, I'd say, eight out of ten flights.
The other day, he asked for the before landing checklist 3 times in a matter of 45 seconds.

I appreciate all you guys inputs. I've come to the conclusion now that I'll just have to put up with it or leave the job (the latter of which I'm certainly not going to do) and that it does happen this way among other flight crews.
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Damn. I was thinking about this today. One of the guys I fly with was/is a bit of a "cowboy" pilot. I can't tell you the number of times we have gone faster than 250 kias below 10,000 feet. There were also some other things that he did that would drive me crazy. Instead of saying anything to him (mainly because he wasn't doing anything illegal or unsafe, with the exception of the speeding) when it was finally my turn to fly, I would do things the way I thought they should be done (aka, using the checklist more and slowing to 250 BEFORE going below 10,000). I've noticed a change in the way he flies the airplane. He's not as much of a "cowboy" as he was when I first started. Was it me who had the effect on him? I have no idea, but it might at least be worth a shot. It sounds like you're already doing that somewhat, but give it time, and keep it up.
 
Thanks for the advice. Truth be told, in the 2 months I've worked for this company, I've only had the PF duties on maybe 5 legs out of the 15 trips we've flown. Every single time, I've hit all my altitude and airspeed restrictions, shot the approach at Vapp, crossed the threshold at Vref+5, touched down on the first 2000 feet of the runway, been conservative although adequate with the use of reverse thrust (as to not throw the pax into the cockpit). But like you JDE, I've lost count how many times we've been doing greater than 250 below 10,000, 20 knots faster than an ATC speed restriction, excessive descent rates to make up for a busted crossing restriction, excessive speed on final, touching down with only 2,800 feet remaining on the runway at a specific smaller airport, max reverse thrust on a 10,000 foot runway, etc etc.

I'm starting to wonder whether it is a confidence issue, as in the CA lacking confidence in my ability to safely handle the airplane, or whether it is due to a fear of me "showing him up" with the boss men in the back. Whatever it is, I'm rarely anything other than a switch bitch when we have pax on board.
 
jonnyb said:
I do this all the time. My FO will say "_________ checklist complete" and a few moments later I will confirm with him or ask for such checklist. Sometimes I'll ask him twice because there is a lot going on and the information hasn't registered.
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That's what you get for having a hobbit for an FO! :D

To the original poster, despite what our well-meaning airline guys are saying, I suggest you NOT be an ass about it; most of them are IN their last aviation job, whereas in the corporate/charter world, your next job depends on what the folks you work for at this job have to say about you. You get a rep as a know-it-all ass-hole and your career will be short-lived indeed.

So what's the middle ground? Be proactive, but respectful. When you think it's time for a checklist, ask your capt if he's ready for it, or just silently do it as others have suggested. Nobody's gonna bust your balls for doing so.

In any case, don't be so naive as to think that you can change your captain or your company's ways. They're more likely to change FOs, if you get my drift. If you can't stand being in the situation as-is, go find yourself another job. One of the things that's most annoying about grads of the big aviation schools is that they often think they were taught the one and only right way, and thus everything else is wrong. (You military guys have your own version of this, the AETC way and the way things are really done.)

Just be warned that if you tell that 18,000 hr pilot he needs to change his ways, he's likely to tell you to STFU.
 
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