RJ program now FREE to ATP instructors

[meyers9163]

"We could debate all day about what "good" CFIs "should" be paid"

Actually, "good CFI's" weren't PPL's 90 days ago, so I think ATP pay is in line with the product they are paying for.

ATP is what it is, and it works for many folks. But there is a limit to how sweet they ought to be making that koolaide taste...

Perhaps I read it wrong but I'm still thinking it says that someone who got their CFI from ATP is lesser quality then someone who is a new CFI from some where else when in all honesty a new CFI is a new CFI..... its my only arguement.......

 

[meyers9163]

Who would you pay more for: 777forever (no offense - you're just new) or Tgrayson/ Midlifeflyer?

I'd probably bay $10-$15 an hour for a 250-500 hour instructor. I'd probably pay $60/ hour for someone who was like the two guys above.

I would agree with you in only one situation. If a CFI who has proven themselves to have a quality instruction style and also have a high pass rate I would pay more. I could care less if they have a crap load of hours. Just because they have hours doesnt mean their instruction is going to be any better then a newbie.... However if they have hours, a great records, and a quality about them I like and a high pass rate and knowledge I'd have no problem paying a little more then a "newbie" cfi.....

Again my thing was just stating a new cfi is a new cfi regardless if they got their PPL 90 days ago or 5 years ago........ BOTH are NEW CFI's with zero dual given..... Simply thats all my argumenet is.

 

[turbomax97]

I would agree with you in only one situation. If a CFI who has proven themselves to have a quality instruction style and also have a high pass rate I would pay more. I could care less if they have a crap load of hours. Just because they have hours doesnt mean their instruction is going to be any better then a newbie.... However if they have hours, a great records, and a quality about them I like and a high pass rate and knowledge I'd have no problem paying a little more then a "newbie" cfi.....

Again my thing was just stating a new cfi is a new cfi regardless if they got their PPL 90 days ago or 5 years ago........ BOTH are NEW CFI's with zero dual given..... Simply thats all my argumenet is.

I concur to an extent- whether a fast tracked style like ATP, or a FBO one on one style curriculum - it all comes down to how much effort their CFI dedicated, and they themselves studied. You can definately see that in ATP's instructors. Some are a wealth of knowledge, and some - well let's just say it's amazing they got their tickets.

On the other hand - there is a progression as you will see when you start instructing. Track record doesn't mean too much - there's times that you will get students @ ATP that you know will bust most of their checkrides, or you may do add ons as myself and sign off 100 applicants with only one bust. That doesn't necessarily say ANYTHING about the instructor.

Hours on the other hand, go hand in hand with EXPERIENCE, and on that note, a 1000 hour CFI in general is going to be MUCH more proficient than a 300 hour one, regardless of bust rate.

 

[GaTechKid]

Even if they paid me to take the program it doesn't do jack squat to prepare you to fly the line of the CTRL+ALT+DEL jet.

It's designed to help you through your first 121 groundschool, and it works. BTW, I can only speak for the Saab but that was a CTRL+ALT+DEL aircraft as well. *DING* "Is there a circuit breaker for that?"

This course is worthless.

It has its worth, but you might not value it at $6000. Since it's free for ATP instructors it can only be beneficial to them anyway.

 

[BobDDuck]

Oh and one more thing, ATP may not be the best paying instructing job, but who cares. It's about getting the experience................QUIT YOUR WHINING

Be VERY careful with that attitude. It's a quick step from there to "flying 100 seat jets for 50 seat jet pay may not pay as well as it should, but who cares? It's about getting the experience (upgrade)."

CFIing is NOT directly about building experience, although that certainly is the number one side effect. A CFI is there to teach others the necessary flying skills and hence, should be paid appropriately to do so.

 

[derg]

On that note, once upon a time people would clamour just to get hired at a major because once they had the job, they were set.

Now people are saying "Yeah, the FO pay stinks, but I can get an upgrade in X number of years".

Aye yi yi...

 

[surreal1221]

You are certainly free to decide not instruct for low pay. Go ahead and move your family across the country to hunt down an extra $5-10/hour in a job you'll keep for 3-6 months (typing those based on the "since CFIing isn't a career" concept). Totally your decision. If the sacrifices necessary to hunt down that mythical "high paying" CFI job is worth it to you, rock on.

Wow. . .I cut and chopped that huge paragraph. . .geez, what a bear to read.

Anyway - you obviously missed the point of why I wrote the original comment.

You seem to think that it is okay to work for such low wages, while I disagree. I never said anything about moving across the country. I have a house I just bought, a wife with a steady career. Why would I want to move? Especially when I actually enjoy the flight school I'm attending, and look forward to working for.

So like I said, I disagree with the comment that "since CFIing isn't a career, it's okay to work for such low wages."

I disagree with it because it's ########. And, some naive tool could carry that comment into the regional airline environment.

"Since the regionals are not a career, it's okay to work for low wages."

No, wrong, incorrect. Just as incorrect as saying that as a professional CFI you are okay with being paid ####.

 

[Clocks]

You seem to think that it is okay to work for such low wages, while I disagree.

Then don't work for low wages.

And as a general statement obviously not aimed at surreal:

Lots of people are more than willing to look down from the left seat of their 767 and tell others "Don't work for low wages!". Its a pretty easy statement to make once you have "made it". How about you quit your job and make room for someone else so they don't have to work for "low wages"? If it's so damn easy to not work for "low wages", then it should be pretty damn easy for you too? Of course that's ridiculous, because you were intelligent enough to be born earlier...right?

I am not opening a discussion on seniority (which I agree with), but rather the attitude that repeatedly appears from those who have achieved the goals we are working for telling everyone 1 seniority number behind them that they are responsible for everything that is wrong with pilot pay. Because if this exact same environment had existed when you were a CFI, you would have simply walked away from the industry? Sure.

 

[OldTownPilot]

While making $500 a month flying 50 hrs if not less....

People come instruct here to get out fast, not for the pay. Even still the pay is not horribly bad. I see the free RJ course as a $2000 pay increase. Instructors here last 3 months or less. That time frame is way too short to be chasing a high paying job across the country. And you do need multi time to get to a decent regional.



With a 99.9% pass rate and 300+ graduates its pretty safe to assume its helping

Math hint: 299/300 is 99.6% not 99.9

50 hours and 500 bucks, thats 10/hr. Find an FBO/ small school that pays that little. Doenst happen. Our place pays 20 and with a full time job you'd probably bill 20+ hours a week right now.

Anyone want a CFI job in Maine that WANTS TO TEACH?

 

[meyers9163]

Math hint: 299/300 is 99.6% not 99.9

50 hours and 500 bucks, thats 10/hr. Find an FBO/ small school that pays that little. Doenst happen. Our place pays 20 and with a full time job you'd probably bill 20+ hours a week right now.

Anyone want a CFI job in Maine that WANTS TO TEACH?

Darn it and now ATP gives a 7k course to their students for free..... oh yeah I dont think that's taxed either ! Anyways the point of this thread was to state that even though the pay may "suck" and or be sub par these are initial steps to help make ATP a better place to instruct...... Not saying its the BEST job or a GREAT paying job.... Just a good place to instruct and get experience, meet people who are motivated and want to learn etc...... Take it as you want......

 

[Clocks]

Math hint: 299/300 is 99.6% not 99.9

50 hours and 500 bucks, thats 10/hr. Find an FBO/ small school that pays that little. Doenst happen. Our place pays 20 and with a full time job you'd probably bill 20+ hours a week right now.

Anyone want a CFI job in Maine that WANTS TO TEACH?

20 hours of multi a week at $20/h take home?

Actually I just read another thread where you said your flight school has no twins. No wonder they have to pay an extra $5 an hour over what I make at ATP. $1600/m doesn't really sound that great when you need to write a check for $8000+ to buy your multi time.

 

[boomer81]

Be VERY careful with that attitude. It's a quick step from there to "flying 100 seat jets for 50 seat jet pay may not pay as well as it should, but who cares? It's about getting the experience (upgrade)."

CFIing is NOT directly about building experience, although that certainly is the number one side effect. A CFI is there to teach others the necessary flying skills and hence, should be paid appropriately to do so.

I think that was taken the wrong way. People sit here write stuff about how people are getting hired with low time/experience. (I don't want to get into a debate about that, well save that for later). However, the underlying theme with that debate is the experience with those getting hired. I agree completely that a cfi is there to teach others the necessary flying skills. But right there next to that is for the cfi to gain experience.

I was merely trying to convey, not clearly enough, that ATP may not pay the highest but they are certainly not the lowest. In my humble opinion, I think those that do/and will instruct at ATP will have a good thing going for them. Of course the obvious being the multi. There is going to be no shortage of students-those that will instruct there will be teaching a lot and learning a lot.

My part about whining, well we all in some point will have paid our dues. Yeah the money isn't great but there are a lot of lessons learned.

 

[Trip7]

20 hours of multi a week at $20/h take home?

Actually I just read another thread where you said your flight school has no twins. No wonder they have to pay an extra $5 an hour over what I make at ATP. $1600/m doesn't really sound that great when you need to write a check for $8000+ to buy your multi time.

:yeahthat:

 

[BobDDuck]

I was merely trying to convey, not clearly enough, that ATP may not pay the highest but they are certainly not the lowest. In my humble opinion, I think those that do/and will instruct at ATP will have a good thing going for them. Of course the obvious being the multi. There is going to be no shortage of students-those that will instruct there will be teaching a lot and learning a lot.

I very much agree with that. It's just important to remember that while you certainly ARE learning (or should be anyways) new stuff all the time when you instruct, being a CFIing is no longer part of "getting your ratings". The multi time is great though. We have new hire guys here who have about 25 hours of multi time and they can't even sync up the thrust levers on the jet. At least somebody coming out of the ATP system (as a student and then an instructor) with several hundred hours of multi is going to at least have a clue about multi engine aerodynamics.

 

[Seggy]

It's designed to help you through your first 121 groundschool, and it works.

What about the tens of thousands of airline pilots that made it through their first 121 groundschool before this program? Poor excuse.

Airline groundschool is not the big deal people make it out to be. By the time you make it to that point it should not be a question whether you will pass.

 

[Trip7]

<p>

What about the tens of thousands of airline pilots that made it through their first 121 groundschool before this program? Poor excuse. </p>
<p>Airline groundschool is not the big deal people make it out to be. By the time you make it to that point it should not be a questions whether you will pass.

</p>
<p>Just because tens of thousands passed means its not worth it? Now that's a poor excuse to not educate yourself. Alittle more education does help. Sticking your foot in the pool to feel the temperature of the water before you jump in is a good idea. The idea behind the Rj program is to help make the transition to state of the art glass regional cockpits easier. What about the turbine pilots manual? Do you recommend no one read that because tens of thousands of pilots have made it thru without reading it? Tens of thousands have passed instrument checkrides without watching the King videos, no one should watch it hehe. Its not some theory or opinion, its a fact that the course helps and the statistics prove that. Many others agree, including the chief pilots at ASA, Republic, American Eagle, Pinnacle, Trans State, XJT, and PSA.</p>

 

[Seggy]

<p></p>
<p>Just because tens of thousands passed means its not worth it? Now that's a poor excuse to not educate yourself. Alittle more education does help. Sticking your foot in the pool to feel the temperature of the water before you jump in is a good idea. The idea behind the Rj program is to help make the transition to state of the art glass regional cockpits easier. What about the turbine pilots manual? Do you recommend no one read that because tens of thousands of pilots have made it thru without reading it? Tens of thousands have passed instrument checkrides without watching the King videos, no one should watch it hehe. Its not some theory or opinion, its a fact that the course helps and the statistics prove that. Many others agree, including the chief pilots at ASA, Republic, American Eagle, Pinnacle, Trans State, XJT, and PSA.</p>

Educating yourself on what?

If you want to educate yourself then fly for AMF for a while then go to a regional.

Flying an RJ is not that difficult or know how to use a freaking FMS. It is a waste of $6000. They should be paying you more as a CFI than giving you a 'free' spin around the block in a CRJ sim.

 

[Clocks]

Flying an RJ is not that difficult or know how to use a freaking FMS. It is a waste of $6000. They should be paying you more as a CFI than giving you a 'free' spin around the block in a CRJ sim.

I think we're still looking for a flight school that pays more and gives 60-80+ hours a month of multi.

Obviously you know of many, so share the wealth man.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Educating yourself on what?

If you want to educate yourself then fly for AMF for a while then go to a regional.

Flying an RJ is not that difficult or know how to use a freaking FMS. It is a waste of $6000. They should be paying you more as a CFI than giving you a 'free' spin around the block in a CRJ sim.

But Seggy...arguing about what they should be doing is like arguing in the wind.

I was never a fan of the RJ program, but now that it is free for instructors, what's the big deal, and why is everyone arguing!?

Paying $6k for something that you'd get free in ground school is tantamount to stupidity. But that same program is now free...it's like getting $25 buck worth of free gas.

Enjoy!

 

[Clocks]

I was never a fan of the RJ program, but now that it is free for instructors, what's the big deal, and why is everyone arguing!?

Some people wont be happy until ATP sells all their twins, gives the CFIs a $5/hour raise to teach in 172s, cancel the RJ program, stop any deals with any airlines, reduce the number of students and the hours flown by the instructors, and otherwise make ATP look exactly like the FBO they taught at. Because any place they went to is vastly superior to any school they didn't go to.