ATP D-Jets to raise training costs?

The thing is these decisions are so damn complicated. should I work while I train and take 1 1/2 years longer for my ratings? or should I just pund them out as soon as possible and get on the "list" as soon as possible. I might be an idiot but I'm 24 making very good money (about 75k) this year in a sales job that lets me work from home (no office to go to in the morning) and a territory that lets me fly around a lot (UT, CO,NM, AZ-earn a lot of frequent flyer miles). But the fact is I can't get flying out of my head and eventually I have to plunge into it or I'll regret it for the rest of my life. Sales jobs will always be there. But I don't want to be in my early 40s wondering if I can live on first year FO pay and support a family. Maybe it's good for some people to just emerse themselves in training 24/7 and get where they want to be. I don't know I can see both sides for sure which makes things even more confusing. With the kind of money I'm making I could continue to work and get all of my ratings in say 3-4 years (that's how long it would take because of time constraint).
 
Pilot2087 said:
oh, and ATP is gonna raise the price of the program with the jets, Jim told me that himself.

Even though I disagree with the jets, and the price increase, you gotta admit, its a smart bussiness move by ATP
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I still don't understand why the hell a D-jet type rating is neccesary? Regionals don't require them now so why would you need iit later. They need pilots so bad they arn't going to care if you have a D-Jet type rating or not. It just sounds like an excuse to raise the cost to me.
 
Stone Cold said:
Bob, I just hope you get a good chunk of change for defending ATP like you do!!:D;)
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I could certainly use it! In reality... my defense of the program usually only comes out when hardliners come on here and say things like:
  • "It can't possibly work."
  • "The students and instructors there are sub-par."
  • "It costs too much!"
My responses to the above... tend to be in the range of:
  • "It can and does... especially if you're the type of person that enjoys this type of program".
  • "Some are... Most aren't... ;)"
  • "Not compared to other larger academy style programs... so if you've decided on that type of route... then it may be something to consider."
I feel I defend rational thought... more than a training program. ;)

DenverPilot8 said:
I still don't understand why the hell a D-jet type rating is neccesary? Regionals don't require them now so why would you need iit later. They need pilots so bad they arn't going to care if you have a D-Jet type rating or not. It just sounds like an excuse to raise the cost to me.
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Denver,

I don't think it's really about the "Type" per se. It's about the actual "Turbine Time", and getting it legally. Think about this: If the hiring trends start slowing (and they will... they always do... we just don't know when) then the market becomes a lot more competitive again. Let's say a hiring panel has two good candidates in front of them... Both went to multi training schools and both have relatively great attitudes and have passed all the other parts of the interview thus far. But they can only hire one... Which looks better to them?

Pilot A: 970 hours TT, 400 Multi
Pilot B: 930 hours TT, 350 Multi, 100 Turbine (Type rated)

One of the questions that I personally was asked in my interview was... "What have you done to prepare yourself from flying a simple twin to flying a turbine powered aircraft with advanced systems whose approach speed equals your top speed?"

Who would have a better response to that question? Pilot A or B?

Lastly... let's consider what all the aviation mags currently consider to be the "next big thing" in aviation... the VLJ's. The focus over the next few years could very well see more and more pilots becoming VLJ operators for companies who train people in the VLJ's or who shuttle folks (air taxi) in the VLJ's. How many other flight schools out there are even looking at preparing individuals for this next wave?

Something to consider anyway...

Bob
 
Stone Cold said:
They will take pilot C over those two...freight dawg, rated in ME airplanes, or turbine airplanes, or whatever with 1500+TT and PIC experience flying the line.;)
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1500TT?? What, was pilot C a freight dog for only 3 months? ;)
 
Captain_Bob said:
I could certainly use it! In reality... my defense of the program usually only comes out when hardliners come on here and say things like:
  • "It can't possibly work."
  • "The students and instructors there are sub-par."
  • "It costs too much!"
My responses to the above... tend to be in the range of:
  • "It can and does... especially if you're the type of person that enjoys this type of program".
  • "Some are... Most aren't... ;)"
  • "Not compared to other larger academy style programs... so if you've decided on that type of route... then it may be something to consider."
I feel I defend rational thought... more than a training program. ;)

Denver,

I don't think it's really about the "Type" per se. It's about the actual "Turbine Time", and getting it legally. Think about this: If the hiring trends start slowing (and they will... they always do... we just don't know when) then the market becomes a lot more competitive again. Let's say a hiring panel has two good candidates in front of them... Both went to multi training schools and both have relatively great attitudes and have passed all the other parts of the interview thus far. But they can only hire one... Which looks better to them?

Pilot A: 970 hours TT, 400 Multi
Pilot B: 930 hours TT, 350 Multi, 100 Turbine (Type rated)

One of the questions that I personally was asked in my interview was... "What have you done to prepare yourself from flying a simple twin to flying a turbine powered aircraft with advanced systems whose approach speed equals your top speed?"

Who would have a better response to that question? Pilot A or B?

Lastly... let's consider what all the aviation mags currently consider to be the "next big thing" in aviation... the VLJ's. The focus over the next few years could very well see more and more pilots becoming VLJ operators for companies who train people in the VLJ's or who shuttle folks (air taxi) in the VLJ's. How many other flight schools out there are even looking at preparing individuals for this next wave?

Something to consider anyway...

Bob
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Well if a type rating is in fact going to be beneficial then I would like to see it be optional to the program. I don't want them raising the cost for the pro-pilot course because you get a D-jet rating. It should be an add on if the pilot feels that it is necessary. Personally i don't even think the high altitude endorsement that they give is necessary (cool but not needed). If it would reduce my cost by $2000 then I could do without it. Another thing is that nobody knows what the hiring pool is going to look like. I would rather take my chances without the D-jet rating. Lastely I'm not trying to be negative about it. But I think that in TODAYS market this rating is completely unneccesary. Now with all of that said im looking into this because in the end I'm highly considering ATP for my training. That's why any potential cost increase concerns me.
 
are they really going to substitute half of your XC Seminole time with the diamond jet? I can't see any insurance company letting ATP put 2 fresh IFR/type rated pilots together on long xc's.

-Rob
 
DenverPilot8 said:
Well if a type rating is in fact going to be beneficial then I would like to see it be optional to the program. I don't want them raising the cost for the pro-pilot course because you get a D-jet rating. It should be an add on if the pilot feels that it is necessary. Personally i don't even think the high altitude endorsement that they give is necessary (cool but not needed). If it would reduce my cost by $2000 then I could do without it. Another thing is that nobody knows what the hiring pool is going to look like. I would rather take my chances without the D-jet rating. Lastely I'm not trying to be negative about it. But I think that in TODAYS market this rating is completely unneccesary. Now with all of that said im looking into this because in the end I'm highly considering ATP for my training. That's why any potential cost increase concerns me.
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The thing is... the WHOLE program is optional... if you don't like it... you don't have to attend it... and there is probably another program that more fits your needs.

Ultimately... you have a decision to make down the road on what will work best for you. Right now however... your tapping un-needed frustrations within yourself trying to figure out what this... or any program... will look like a year+ down the road.

You are right about "Today's Market"... but the whole D-Jet thing isn't even coming to fruition for a long time. There's not even a D-Jet ready for certification yet.

v1valarob said:
are they really going to substitute half of your XC Seminole time with the diamond jet? I can't see any insurance company letting ATP put 2 fresh IFR/type rated pilots together on long xc's.

-Rob
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Rob... I would think that it would be possible... and most likely only by an insurance company that currently insures brand new IFR/ME rated students on those same XC's in $400,000 recip-twins. 20 years ago... folks thought that was nuts too... ;)

As to how they are going to break up the program regarding hours... who knows... but as you can tell just by reading these and other forums... speculation is rampant! ;)

Bob
 
According to one of the head admission jobs they will be splitting up the multi time and the jet time half/half... you could call the 1800 number and find out what they say about how they are looking to introduce the jets in to the course or if it will be an option...
 
Captain_Bob said:
The thing is... the WHOLE program is optional... if you don't like it... you don't have to attend it... and there is probably another program that more fits your needs.

your right is is "optional" but I wouldn't be talking about it unless I had already seriously considered the program. I would want to take it as it is now without having a D-jet rating shoved down my throat because its "included" in the program. I don HAVE to go there but I WANT to go there. I'm LOOKING to find reasons to go their and get my ratings as fast as I can. If I thought that it was an easy "option" to forget about then I wouldn't be raising concern about it.

Captain_Bob said:
Ultimately... you have a decision to make down the road on what will work best for you. Right now however... your tapping un-needed frustrations within yourself trying to figure out what this... or any program... will look like a year+ down the road.

I don't know about you but I would like to financially plan before I jump into a 24/7 program. i see nothing wrong with raising concern of something down the road.

Captain_Bob said:
You are right about "Today's Market"... but the whole D-Jet thing isn't even coming to fruition for a long time. There's not even a D-Jet ready for certification yet.

finally it is a fact that this is going to be part of their program it says it right on their web-site not to mention that people on this forum have confirmed it. D-Jet= increased training costs period. And what if Today's market is next years market?

I don't see anything rediculous or invalid in what I'm saying. I've already said that I'm considering the program for what it is now. I'm not here to bash their program or anything else. I'm just saying that this add on Type Rating isn't needed now and most likely won't need it next year. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that if this place gets any more expensive I just can't afford it plain and simple. I want to go their but I just can't pay for it. What's wrong with raising that concern?

Speculation....maybe but i would rather be finacially prepared and at least know wether or not i should plan on attending there.
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When ATP first started, they were one of the first to do everything multi, and people complained about that, but they were successful, now more and more schools are doing that, Now ATP is be becoming the first to do turbine time, if you dont like it... go to one of the many other multi schools out there. ATP probably will become even more successful with the jets, One of the head honchos in Jacksonville was telling me that all the D-jet time will be with another instructor, and the ATP instructors will have an opportunity to get tons of jet time. Probably the only ppl who would pay that much money to do the program are the pilots that want to do some jet instructing. If you dont want the jet time, go to aviator or someplace else, if your worried about the price, Aviator will be cheaper anyhow.
 
Hey Denver... I really hope you don't think I'm getting all up in your stuff...

I'm just stating what... as you are painfully aware of... is obvious.

I know you want to plan now for later... everyone does... but... look at the changes in cost and all flight programs across the board in the last 4 years alone... Academy to FBO.

Chances are... there will be another 20 page thread on how expensive flight training is by this time next year. No matter what that program looks like. The only way to be sure about the cost is to lock it in right now... if you even can do that. Then you know for certain how much it will cost. But... I understand that is most likely not an option.

Beyond that... so much can and will most likely change in the next year. AvFuel is trending up... CFI's are leaving schools quickly causing FBO's & academies alike to increase pay & incentives to keep them around... standard inflation... etc. All things that will keep prices of training going up.

Quite frankly... when flight schools and FBO's start offering lower rates again... it will most likely be due to a lack of demand for their product... and while that may be more cost effective for you at the time... it may not be when you are trying to find a job in the 121 market due to a slow down.

Have you called the school and talked with any of the admissions folks to ask them questions and discuss your concerns? That might prove beneficial... but then again... they may just say... "we don't know yet what the program will look like... or cost by this time next year."

Bob
 
DE727UPS said:
I don't know. Capt Bob might. I doubt many ATP CFI's are around long enough to become Gold Seal CFI's. That's really not the point of the place. 200 hours of dual given and you're out the door to a regional to make room for the next body.
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you would be surprised! there are probably more gold seal CFI's at ATP than most any other school for one reason: we sign off A LOT of pilots for checkrides. I qualified for and recieved my gold seal after only a month instructing with ATP and all the instructors at my location that were there for at least a month or 2 either had, or qualified for gold seal they just had to fill out the 8710.
 
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