ATP D-Jets to raise training costs?

[DenverPilot8]

Myself along with many other pilots are strongly considering places like ATP for flight training. My concern is at what point will training costs just be too much out of reach of people to pay for. With ATP raising their prices this year by $5000 and no training cost decrease in sight at what point will people break and give up their dream of flying.

On the ATP site they are saying that once the D-Jets arrive that career pilot students will get a type rating in this aircraft. What is that going to do to training cost? Personally In todays hiring market I don't think a D-jet type rating is going to mean anything for getting hired with the regionals considering type ratings are not required now. I'm just wondering what the tolerance of people is for taking on Debt to become a pilot?

 

[Berkut]

With ATP raising their prices this year by $5000 and no training cost decrease in sight at what point will people break and give up their dream of flying.

I hope that no one will give up their dream of flying just because one flight school is too expensive.

 

[MSUDAWG]

There are other places you can go to get your ratings and still not spend anywhere near 50k to do so.....I dont know what the hype is about atp that draws everyone there to drop 50k they dont have to get their stuff done in 90 days....Is it the time frame? (which you could do the same at an FBO) Is it the "reputation?" (I thought you earn that for yourself) Is it the "structured" program? (once again, you can arrange the structure at an fbo with the instructor)

Maybe its just me and maybe Im too cheap but I would never dream of paying that bc you will end up paying FAR more unless you are fortunate to have 50k on hand to spend. I do believe ATP is a good program (I got my multi there), but spending that money just for the name is a little overboard.

 

[Captain_Bob]

Myself along with many other pilots are strongly considering places like ATP for flight training. My concern is at what point will training costs just be too much out of reach of people to pay for. With ATP raising their prices this year by $5000 and no training cost decrease in sight at what point will people break and give up their dream of flying.

On the ATP site they are saying that once the D-Jets arrive that career pilot students will get a type rating in this aircraft. What is that going to do to training cost? Personally In todays hiring market I don't think a D-jet type rating is going to mean anything for getting hired with the regionals considering type ratings are not required now. I'm just wondering what the tolerance of people is for taking on Debt to become a pilot?

Here's an older thread that discusses the increases at ATP versus other flight school/FBO increases over time as well as some benefit to the Turbine time:

JC.com Thread: ATP Price Increase

I dont know what the hype is about atp that draws everyone there to drop 50k they dont have to get their stuff done in 90 days....Is it the time frame?

For most folks... I think this is one of the biggest draws... in addition to the multi time.

Is it the "reputation?" (I thought you earn that for yourself)

For many... it is about the reputation of the school... not their personal reputation.

Is it the "structured" program? (once again, you can arrange the structure at an fbo with the instructor)

Yes... I believe that is one of the main draws as well. Setting up a structure with an FBO instructor on par/pace with an ATP type of program is a lot harder than you may think. Loadmaster141 is currently experiencing this right now. This guy is hardcore into his goals... and is doing everything he can to keep up a good pace with his ratings... but he is still experiencing delays related to his own personal reasons, equipment, instructor scheduling, DE scheduling, etc...

Maybe its just me and maybe Im too cheap but I would never dream of paying that bc you will end up paying FAR more unless you are fortunate to have 50k on hand to spend. I do believe ATP is a good program (I got my multi there), but spending that money just for the name is a little overboard.

I hear ya... but again... for a lot of people time does equal money. Folks certainly have decisions to make and choices to choose from... but if they decide to go to a larger school vs. an FBO then $50K is still not as much as many of the other type of programs out there.

Flight Training School Cost Comparison

It's still the cheapest of the larger academies... and still offers the most multi with unlimited SIM time, in a time frame that many folks care about.

Bob

 

[alknew182]

I went through the program and maybe I'm a little biased, but the cost really isent that bad. The amount of money you spend at a local fbo seems to be more it you take in to account how much mulit time ATP gives you.

As for the D-Jet, you will get turbine time yea its not mulit but it is turbine time. From what I have heard you will be flying half of your cross countrys in the D-Jet and the other in the seminole so you can build both of what the airlines want.....

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

I paid 45k for ATP and I received everything they promised in the timeframe (I think plus a few days but that is okay) that they promised and I was well prepared went I came back home and started instructing. I wonder if they will have a D-Jet ACPP and then a regular Seminole ACPP? Or will everyone be going through getting a d-jet type?

 

[MSUDAWG]

I dont mean to sound like im all against ATP bc I am not. I received great training for the multi program and enjoyed doing it. It just sometimes blows me away when aspiring pilots who want so bad to start flying see the increase in price and it drives some of them away. I dont want big academies to put the small guy out. I know the multi time is valuable and I guess thats what draws most people, bigger equipment than what they are used to.

 

[Timbuff10]

Where are these other FBOs where you can get it done in 90 days or less in a twin? Chances are that you probably don't live within driving distance to one and I doubt they will include housing in that price.

It is crazy expensive but from what I have seen in the GA world, it is about the cheapest and most efficient way to go.

 

[LoadMasterC141]

Yes... I believe that is one of the main draws as well. Setting up a structure with an FBO instructor on par/pace with an ATP type of program is a lot harder than you may think. Loadmaster141 is currently experiencing this right now. This guy is hardcore into his goals... and is doing everything he can to keep up a good pace with his ratings... but he is still experiencing delays related to his own personal reasons, equipment, instructor scheduling, DE scheduling, etc...


Bob

I said it before and I'll say it again: If I could have gone to ATP for ACPP, I would. It seems worth it. I am going to spend alot less doing it the way I am, but Bob is right; it is going to take me 3 times as long to complete the training, and I like he said, I have experienced delays already. My 6 month plan is already out to almost 8 months.

As far as the D-Jets go, I would really be surprised if the used them in place of the Seminole initially. ATP is going to be the training center for all new D-Jet owners. They will probably need all the time they can get for that.

 

[Bluehen]

Actually, when you figure in the cost to get your private pilot license from ATP, your looking at close to 60K for the whole program.. Thats a friggin rip off..Hands down...Just so you can say you went to ATP and got your ratings in 90 days.. AS some of you know I dont think to highly of ATP, but still, the overall quality of these guys, not saying all, but for most isnt that good. Lets face it, there is no way you can really get a thorough understanding of all the concepts in 90 days....you just cant, and I dont want to hear the "well, its like drinking from a firehose" and it prepares you for airline training. The fact of the matter is, that by the time you apply for and get hired by and airline you should have a pretty good grasp of the basic concepts, advance concepts etc...if you conside that you are getting 7 ratings in 90 days thats only 12 days to spend on each rating which would include both flight and ground time. Thats just not enough time..They sucker people into the program by flashy ads, and the so called interview process so that they think they are really getting into something great so they will dump 60K...Think about it, do you honestly think that they would not allow someone into their program based on the telephone interview/written test.. I can see it now, James or Jim saying "Sorry, you dont know ####, and even though you wont learn #### here, Im not allowing you to give me 60K for 90 days of substandard training.." its not gonna happen...Im not saying that everyone who goes through the training is a bad pilot, I just think that you should consider other programs other then ATP, programs that are not only cheaper but higher quality...But this is just me ranting again...I got my private, Multi, instrument, commercial, CFI/II for 27, 890..Sure it took me a year and a half, but that was flying as much as I could and studying my ass off...But in the end, I'm in debt 30k less then someone else who went to ATP, and getting the same job in the end... And oh by the way, someone who goes from 0 to hero in 90 days, then teaches for 2 months should in now way occupy the right seat of an airliner, even if they spent the additional 7k for the "regional jet " program..And dont let me forget, I am willing to give anyone comper based training for their ATP written for less then ATP will charge.. You can give me a straight 200.0 and I will personally come to your house, hook up my computer and allow you to use my ATP written software for as long as you like for one day, then personally drive you over to the cats center and allow you to take the written test...

 

[Captain_Bob]

Wow... where to begin?

Actually, when you figure in the cost to get your private pilot license from ATP, your looking at close to 60K for the whole program.. Thats a friggin rip off..Hands down...Just so you can say you went to ATP and got your ratings in 90 days..

Again... not when you figure in the fact of someone looking at a larger flight school vs. the hometown FBO... in addition to the free housing, multi-time, etc. Also... please remember that ATP does not have a "0 to Hero 90-day program". Instead... it's closer to 6 months when you start out in the PPL program.

AS some of you know I dont think to highly of ATP, but still, the overall quality of these guys, not saying all, but for most isnt that good.

Very strong opinion based on your one day of experience in the program. Opinion nontheless. But as I recall... this "shady" company still treated you fairly and kept their end of the bargain by refunding your money in a timely manner.

Having personally gone through the program... I can attest to the fact that it does work... and the quality of the majority of folks that I instructed with was top-notch. I can also attest to the fact that there were a few boneheads in the mix too... just like anyplace else.

Lets face it, there is no way you can really get a thorough understanding of all the concepts in 90 days....you just cant, and I dont want to hear the "well, its like drinking from a firehose" and it prepares you for airline training.

Not a "firehose" program... more of an "immersion" program. Works for some people (most actukally, if they give it a chance), while other's just don't like that type of learning. People are different.

...the so called interview process so that they think they are really getting into something great so they will dump 60K...Think about it, do you honestly think that they would not allow someone into their program based on the telephone interview/written test.. I can see it now, James or Jim saying "Sorry, you dont know ####, and even though you wont learn #### here, Im not allowing you to give me 60K for 90 days of substandard training.." its not gonna happen...

Um... it actually does happen... I've personally seen that too.

Im not saying that everyone who goes through the training is a bad pilot,

LOL! No... but you've come pretty darn close...

I just think that you should consider other programs other then ATP,

Everyone should study and look at all their options when taking on a life changing decision such as this... no arguement there.

And oh, by the way, someone who goes from 0 to hero in 90 days, then teaches for 2 months should in now way occupy the right seat of an airliner, even if they spent the additional 7k for the "regional jet " program..

Again... no "0 to hero" in 90 day programs at ATP... your opinion about low timers can be (and has been) a heated "beat a dead horse" thread in and of itself here on JC... And if folks went through the program then they get offered half off (or more) of the RJ course... so no... they wouldn't have had to have spent an additional "7k for the 'regional jet' program". It's not forced on anyone... it is a fact that it get's folks hired quicker... but many folks choose not to do it... and still get hired in a fairly reasonable period of time... all the while building more experience.

And dont let me forget, I am willing to give anyone comper based training for their ATP written for less then ATP will charge.. You can give me a straight 200.0 and I will personally come to your house, hook up my computer and allow you to use my ATP written software for as long as you like for one day, then personally drive you over to the cats center and allow you to take the written test...

Don't sell yourself short... offering that kind of personalized service should come at a premium!

Seriously though Blue... hope all is going well for you. Haven't heard from you in a long time. Where did you get hired?

Bob

 

[DE727UPS]

I, too, am not a proponent of the 90 day program. I'll keep it short so Capt Bob doesn't need to spend so much time with the apologetics....all that cutting, pasting, quoting...it's so dull.

90 days to go from PPL to CFIMEI, to active CFI, having never set foot outside one academies system to experience the real world, no seasoning experiences on your own "outside the bubble", and straight to a regional as fast as you can get there.

Guys are missing out on a lot in their quest to "get on the list now".

It's what the regionals seem to want, these days, though. I just think it's sad to see the bar lowered this far with what regionals desire in an airline pilot. I liked it better when guys needed a step between CFIing and flying for the airlines. Made for a better F/O.

 

[Cactus_Cutter]

Just a thought... What is the percentage of instructors at ATP that have recieved and maintained their "Gold Seal" status while instructing there???

Something to ask any flight school. It shows quality and the ability of your instructor to manage your progress effectively.

Remember, its your FAA record.

 

[montanapilot]

But Don you just don't get it, you get to fly a JETTT!!11one!11!!

and wear a sweet uniform to pick up chicks, and rock out to U2 on your ipod thats in your Oakley backpack as you strut through the terminal.

that was for you brain dead/pilot wonder wannabees out there.

 

[DE727UPS]

I don't know. Capt Bob might. I doubt many ATP CFI's are around long enough to become Gold Seal CFI's. That's really not the point of the place. 200 hours of dual given and you're out the door to a regional to make room for the next body.

And I don't even really mean to knock ATP. I'm just not a fan of the 90 day program for reasons, ad nauseum, I have expressed. As a flight academy, in general, they (as Capt Bob says) are a lot cheaper than FSA, and probably most others. They do a lot of CFI's and should know how to get a guy through that certificate in a way some smaller schools might not be able too.

So there yeah go, I'm not a hater....

 

[Captain_Bob]

I, too, am not a proponent of the 90 day program. I'll keep it short so Capt Bob doesn't need to spend so much time with the apologetics....

Hey now... apologetics is fun... it's a nice form of debate you and I are both guilty of here on JC.

all that cutting, pasting, quoting...

Yeah... I know... I think I have a problem...

But I do enjoy going into detail when discussions about fact vs. opinion arise... and the JC archives are such a rich source of history that it's hard not to snip and glue a bit every now and then.

that was for you brain dead/pilot wonder wannabees out there.

..and such a wonderful way to win folks over to your cause...

Bob

 

[LoadMasterC141]

My only experience so far is from the FBO. It is hard to compare my experience personally to the 90-day type program because I lack personal experience on one side.
I have said this before though and I think it is the biggest argument FOR an academy-type environment: I work and fly on the side right now. Sometimes I have to go a whole week without flying. I believe this to be detrimental to my education. If I was in a program like the ACPP, I would be all about learning to fly 24/7 surrounded by people doing the same. To me, that is the better environment. Even though we say it only takes 3 months versus say 9-12, I really think I would have spent more actual time “learning to be a pilot” than the longer time period. Just opinions of a lowly wannabe right now, but that is how I feel. Further, as mentioned before, I want to CFI for ATP. I WILL NOT be out the door in a few hundred hours of that though.

 

[Pilot2087]

I have been on both sides of the fence, as well as instructed at both accelerated school, and FBO's. And Im totally convinced that Immersion style schools are the way to go, now if you wanna putt around at a local FBO because you got another job, or family etc. that is perfectly acceptable, but I really doubt if you wanna go full time into flying, that you can beat accelerated courses like ATP.

Also one other thing I noticed, Its always the pilots that took 12 - 48 months of training that is always bashing ATP training, They only been on one side of the fence. Many of the guys that went to ATP been on BOTH sides of the fence, (Accelerated schools, and FBO's) and I wonder why they end up liking the Immersion style program.

I have two close friends and we all decided to become pilots, and pretty much started at the same time, I was the guy that went to ATP, , One went to Riddle, the other did everything though the FBO, I did all my ratings in three months, then started instructing at different 141 accelerated school and within months had 500 hours (mostly multi), at that time the Riddle guy had 150 hours, and already spent twice as much as I did total (even counting my online degree) , and he still is in school, the FBO guy is still working on CPL and will spend close to the same amount of money as me. (so much hidden costs that he didnt expect)

granted, when they get 250 hours, they probably will be better pilots then me when I was at 250 hours, but Im so far ahead of them now, I feel sorry for them. and now both of them are worrying about multi time, and CFI school they still have to do etc.
I cant imagine myself still being in school right now. I love instructing and have learned alot from instructing and also love the 135 environment.

blah... enough of my ramblings.. and again, Im not saying that accelerated schools are for everyone, Its perfectly fine if it suits your style, Im just tired of people here that never been on the other side of the fence to constantly bash ATP

 

[Pilot2087]

oh, and ATP is gonna raise the price of the program with the jets, Jim told me that himself.

Even though I disagree with the jets, and the price increase, you gotta admit, its a smart bussiness move by ATP

 

[Trip7]

I've been on both sides of the fence and I like the immersion environment way better. I'm a firm believer in 'time is money' And its pretty cool to be here at headquarters while Republic Airways reps are in the building conducting interviews.