Damn that webmaster!
Sheesh, a couple of long trips without a lot of internet access and people think they're running my sh-- now, huh!
Complaining about the money
- Thread starter meritflyer
- Start date
Damn that webmaster!
Sheesh, a couple of long trips without a lot of internet access and people think they're running my sh-- now, huh!
Damn that webmaster!
Sheesh, a couple of long trips without a lot of internet access and people think they're running my sh-- now, huh!
To quote a famous drill sergeant:
"Thank you! May I please be in charge now!"
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Damn that webmaster!
Sheesh, a couple of long trips without a lot of internet access and people think they're running my sh-- now, huh!
:buck:
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
dc3flyer said:
I disagree. I think we can all agree the compensation at the higher level was much better than it is now pre 9/11 (I'm talking 60's thru 2000ish). There were a lot more people coming up thru the ranks then (que statistics about how few pilots are getting certificated these days) and a lot more people willing to work for peanuts for a shot at the big iron, yet their (legacies) pay continued to increase substantially.
So, the supply of pilots is less now, demand is higher, yet pay is lower? That defeats your argument.
I like to see it as compensation for when an engine goes out...the landing gear doesn't come down...weather in the wings...hydraulic problems..autopilot failure etc etc that make expertise and skill a required commodity in the cockpit. not so much for the $$ cost of jets or number of people...but for the times it actually can make or break your life! the fact that the planes cost a bazillion and a persons life costs a bazillion, your always "on duty" even when not being paid etc are just factors in the mix.
dc3flyer
Well-Known Member
Is the supply of pilots shorter today or the supply of 3000 hour pilots? Are the regionals dropping their requirements to a pulse because there aren't enough pilots or just not enough that have flight instructed for 1000 hours?
Not being an airline pilot and being fairly satisfied with my pay, I don't know a lot about this stuff. How many flights have been canceled because there are no pilots? How many pilots go over their guaranteed hours on a regular basis? Do you go over by 5 hours or 20? How do you justify a "shortage" of pilots?
fly22
Well-Known Member
Ole Warren Buffet is a wise man. He once said that happiness in life is not determined by how much you make but by how much you spend. He is not refering to spending a lot but spending within your means. When one does that they take a lot of stress off. Aother great thing he said was cost of living is not equal to quality of life. I love it when mt wife complains about wanting things while we are instead saving mula. All while I watch my neighbor buy quads, ring for wife, etc. etc. later to refinance his house on a terrible loan and take a night job as a bell boy to be able to afford it all.
Money is a fun...ny thing.
I judge how wealthy people are not by what they make but by what they don't spend. I know a handful of rich people who are flat out broke.
Money is a fun...ny thing.
I judge how wealthy people are not by what they make but by what they don't spend. I know a handful of rich people who are flat out broke.
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
True dat.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Despite the lower minimums, all of those are a daily occurance at my airline. Ask NWA about cancelling flights due to lack of crews. I don't even know many reserve CAs here that fly LESS than guarantee in a month. I break guarantee by 20-23 hours a month, and there's still time left over for me to pick up if I can squeeze it in.
To me, that says either the low time guys aren't cutting it through training, they still aren't getting enough pilots even with the lower mins or pay needs to go up in order to attract pilots here. The supply of pilots that want to work here is less than the demand for them.
Tram
Well-Known Member
skydog
New Member
My post had nothing to do with the value, worth or compensation of an airline pilot. The point was that if you can't live on 70K a year, then the problem is you, not the wages. As I stated, most people in this country live on considerably less than 70K a year. Somehow they are doing it. I am doing it myself. Why can't you?
But since you brought it up...
The amount of experience required is a result of the competition for jobs, not the job requirements themselves. Today, people are getting hired right out of flight school, so does that mean they deserve less pay?
If a pilot "screws up" then the first person to die is the pilot. If the incentive to stay alive is not enough to keep the pilot from screwing up, I fail to see how more money will be.
Time away from home is part of the job, and hardly unique to the airline business. One must decide if the job, and all that goes with it, is worth their salary. It is an important consideration on whether or not the pay is "worth it", but does not, in and of itself, deserve more pay. Were that the case, would you then agree that people with the seniorty to hold day trips, or who worked for companies that only flew day trips be deserving of less pay?
What was it worth to me? A lot more than what I was being paid, or what I was ever likely to be paid. I think pilots are worth every penny of that 70K and more. Unfortunately, our free market economy does not agree with me.
One final thought. Ultimately, you decide what you are worth. If you think you are worth 100K, but accept a job for 50K, then you've have decided that you are only worth 50K. No one can underpay you without your permission.
Fly4Pay
New Member
Hmmm... maybe THAT'S the way we should go about contract negotiations. Picture this: you're up there in the big blue, an engine catches on fire, hydraulics go out, and all the fields in the area are at mins.
PA CHIME <BING!> "OK, folks, now how much is a good pilot worth to ya????"
Tram
Well-Known Member
It's not worth any extra... You are properly trained for all that in your 35hours of sim training.. Riiiiight....
You were just doin' your job.. No atta's for doin your job...
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
It depends on location. I could live comfortably on $70K here in MEM. If I moved to MCO.....it would be a whole different ball game. If COL were the same across the country, I'd agree. Ask people in CA if they can live on $70K a year and NOT live in a hovel and buy store brand. There's a difference between "existing" and being happy. Eventually, those that simply exist start to want something more. There's nothing wrong with that. If I worked my butt off on a daily basis and couldn't make ends meet, I'd want more, too.
In a perfect world, I'd say yes. As it is, those are the people that keep the wages down for the rest of us. Management KNOWS they'll fly for peanuts b/c the other options are other low paying jobs not in a jet. I've already met a huge chunk of "happy to be here, can we just sign a contract I don't care what I make" FOs.
On the flip side, I think the CAs that fly with these guys should be making MORE. Why? Now they're having to work harder because of the lower experience level in the right seat.
Salesmen are based on commission, therefore the more time they spend on the road selling, the more money they make. Not so with an airline pilot. The more time WE spend on the road....well, we make the same. Some months I'm gone 4 days at a time, some it's 2 days at a time. My seniority has a little to do with it, but it's mostly driven by the marketing schedule set by NWA, and that changes month to month. In addition to that, show me a businees traveller that has to demonstrate he can do his job under worst case scenarios every 6 months while maintaining a certain level of health or his career is over, and I might agree with you that what we have in the airline industry isn't unique.
So if you don't take the $50K job, you're worthless? I've never agreed with this statement. If you don't take the job, you're unemployed or getting paid less at another job. For example, I was a CFI making a lot less than I am now. I don't agree that I'm only worth $23K because I took this job. I do agree that I needed more money and health benefits, though. Statements like yours above is a serious oversimplification of many complex issues.
tommychuck
New Member
Heck, I made more that at 30, back in 2000. It wasn't as much as you think it is then, much less by the time you're 30.
We're getting hosed by wage stagnation and inflation
I still remember when a whopper w/cheese was $.89 and gas was $.95/gallon.
Vincent Vega: You know what they call a Quarter Pounder with Cheese in Paris?
Jules Winnfield: They don't call it a Quarter Pounder with Cheese?
Vincent Vega: No, man, they got the metric system, they don't know what the fu** a Quarter Pounder is.
Jules Winnfield: What do they call it?
Vincent Vega: They call it a Royal with Cheese.
Jules Winnfield: Royal with Cheese.
Vincent Vega: That's right.
Jules Winnfield: What do they call a Big Mac?
Vincent Vega: Big Mac's a Big Mac, but they call it Le Big Mac.
Jules Winnfield: Le Big Mac. What do they call a Whopper?
Vincent Vega: I don't know. I didn't go into Burger King.
greaper007
Well-Known Member
That's interesting, because I've jumpseated on some mainline flights where the Pilots had a completely different view. I was on a US Airways A320 flight the other day where the pilots were telling me about how they were trying to pull out of ALPA.
greaper007
Well-Known Member
I think the real problem with why we're paid so low is the public has forgotten that flying is dangerous. Even when I was little there were still one or two large jets going down a year. People were still pretty genuinely afraid to fly. Tickets cost more and no one really complained about it. They figured they were getting on a machine that was pretty dangerous, and they were willing to pay more to get an experienced crew and decent equipment. The middle class and lower middle class people just didn't fly. They drove or took the bus.
I'd never like to see it, but if we had a couple of DC-10 sized aircraft going down a year I think we'd see a public willing to pay a few dollars more for a ticket. They also wouldn't complain about "whiney over-paid airline pilots."
I'd never like to see it, but if we had a couple of DC-10 sized aircraft going down a year I think we'd see a public willing to pay a few dollars more for a ticket. They also wouldn't complain about "whiney over-paid airline pilots."
Velocipede
New Member
In that case, it isn't about the money. Its about the fact that they lost their AAA/AWA seniority list arbitration and got ratioed instead of merged by Date of Hire (DoH).
The bottom line...They screwed up and now they want to blame someone. ALPA National is the convenient scapegoat. However, its mostly all talk. They're currently trying to strong arm the Executive Council into vacating the Nicolau Award using threats of decertification.
And it won't happen. Why? They won't get one vote from the AWA guys and they'll have a hard time mustering the required numbers for decertification from strictly AAA pilots.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Exactly. Nicolau even warned the USAir reps that they had better propose another plan other than DOH, and they ignored him and brought the same old DOH proposal back to him. You can't expect a good outcome when you ignore the arbitrator.
I sympathize with the USAir guys, because they really did get screwed in this integration, but threatening to decertify ALPA is over the top.