I made my decision

GalaxyIFE said:
Mmmmm......chezzy poofs...must go to Kiwi-Mart...50K is a chunk of change, but I guess a good private college is running 30K a year. IMO, that 50K has a lot of bang for the buck. Seniority is the name of game, right? I think ATP gets you there pretty quick (at least doesn't slow you down). I know, let the flames rain down on me....:panic:
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I hope your joking.

ATP to a GOOD private (or any college for that matter) is like comparing apples to Alaskin King Crab. ATP MIGHT get your foot in the door for a regional. However, when your 35, fat and can't keep your first class medical, do you think ATP will get you any job outside of aviation? If you want to invest 50k into something, make it worth your while and get your bachelors.

And I still cant believe people keep saying "Seniorioty is the name of the game". I just dont get it.

Today I logged 6.0 on my grumman tiger flying from Connecticut to Virginia to Jersey and then back to Connecticut. Wouldn't trade the fun I had today to be in a regional jet for the world. Not yet at least.

Go to an FBO and get your ratings through them. You will save more money than if you used geico.com, and you will learn a chitload more instructing. And your 26, really, you have a lot of time. I think you (or someone else) said you have your 4 year degree? It's my firm belief that a degree is the most important "rating" you could possibly have. Maybe you wont be top dog on the seniorioty list, however, while # 542 out of 1100 is trying to finish his degree online with a chitty regional schedule, you, mr. not so glorious seniorioty # because you didnt go to ATP, only spend the mininum amount of time at xyz regional before your able to meet major mininums. Because you have the most important rating. A degree.

PS- I'm not attacking or flaming you at all galaxy. Nothing against you what so ever man.
 
MikeOH58 said:
I hope your joking.

ATP to a GOOD private (or any college for that matter) is like comparing apples to Alaskin King Crab. ATP MIGHT get your foot in the door for a regional. However, when your 35, fat and can't keep your first class medical, do you think ATP will get you any job outside of aviation? If you want to invest 50k into something, make it worth your while and get your bachelors.

And I still cant believe people keep saying "Seniorioty is the name of the game". I just dont get it.

Today I logged 6.0 on my grumman tiger flying from Connecticut to Virginia to Jersey and then back to Connecticut. Wouldn't trade the fun I had today to be in a regional jet for the world. Not yet at least.

Go to an FBO and get your ratings through them. You will save more money than if you used geico.com, and you will learn a chitload more instructing. And your 26, really, you have a lot of time. I think you (or someone else) said you have your 4 year degree? It's my firm belief that a degree is the most important "rating" you could possibly have. Maybe you wont be top dog on the seniorioty list, however, while # 542 out of 1100 is trying to finish his degree online with a chitty regional schedule, you, mr. not so glorious seniorioty # because you didnt go to ATP, only spend the mininum amount of time at xyz regional before your able to meet major mininums. Because you have the most important rating. A degree.

PS- I'm not attacking or flaming you at all galaxy. Nothing against you what so ever man.
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Well said mate.
 
Fly_Unity said:
I was happy with ATP, but I went before the price increase, and went without getting a loan.
one thing though is that if you have 100 TT right now, you will graduate with 250 total time (not 350), 140 multi, (roughly 90 Multi cross country). The hours shown on ATP's website is slightly misleading
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I have 103.25 TT now, the school will give me 250 additional, 250+100 that I have is 350+
 
montanapilot said:
and how do you expect to repay the loan company on ###### CFI wages, then ###### airline wages.

making between $19-24 an hour (with an average guarantee of 70hrs a month) i have no idea how someone would even begin to even start knocking out the interest on that monster of a loan.
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my wife makes 44,5 a year, so what ever I make instructing (if). We can live on 44,500 a year; in our situation....repaying shouldn't be a prob, seeing as we only have $1000 mortage, and two car payments of total 480.00, and I thats why I am waiting till end of next year to pay off credit cards.. I am curntly working now as well, I make a bit more than my wife... so looking at everything I should be fine..
 
MikeOH58 said:
And I still cant believe people keep saying "Seniorioty is the name of the game". I just dont get it.
Click to expand...
You'd "get it" if:
  • You missed the hiring window for the airline of your choice by a few weeks and then had to make a decision to fly for another regional that may not have as good of a contract, or had bases in hard to commute cities.
  • You ended up getting hired at the airline of your choice towards the end of a hiring spree and thus would have to sit at the bottom of the seniority list on reserve for an extended period of time.
  • You sit at the bottom end of the seniority list with min days off, in a crash-pad, under the rule of crew scheduling while someone who was hired just 1 class prior is enjoying a line, more days off, the ability to trade/drop/add trips while being able to commute without a crash-pad.
  • You missed upgrade by a few numbers while your buddy who got hired a week earlier will be getting that PIC turbine, while you wait patiently hoping that your airline get's the airframe's they were promising to get and that the get to keep the contracts they currently have.
  • You watch your buddy getting his PIC turbine time even though he may be on reserve... while you are still sitting as an FO patiently waiting for another slot that may or may not come anytime soon... meanwhile your buddy may be eligible for a major a year or two before you even though you two were hired within a week of each other.
  • Your getting hired just 6 months sooner than another guy could mean the difference between furlough or a decent progressive career path in this industry, which in turn could turn into a year or more at the top end of your payscale prior to retirement... which would more than make up for a $50k loan with interest that you took out 35 years ago.
  • etc.
Those are just a few examples... I understand folks resentment toward flight school marketing... but there is still some reality to the seniority arguement... and while "seniority" may not be "everything"... it certainly is "something".

Overall though... it's one of those arguements that no one can really win due to the unstable nature of this industry.

For me... Seniority has been my best friend thoughout my career at XJT. However... I have a few buddies that got hired almost 2 years ago at PSA and they are still on reserve. At the time they got hired they were told that more airframes, a new contract for flying, and several hundred more FO's would be coming online soon... and... that never happened. So... the "seniority" thing didn't work out too well for them. However... if they would have left after one year of being on reserve at PSA and came over to XJT... then they'd be lineholders now with great schedules and upgrade right around the corner. But... it's hard to make that jump because people just think that "man... I've already put this much time in at my airline... I just don't want to risk starting over again at another."

So... like it or not... "seniority" is a reality... and it will affect your life from the time you get hired 121... to the time you retire.

eagledriver101 said:
I have 103.25 TT now, the school will give me 250 additional, 250+100 that I have is 350+
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eagledriver... just an FYI... if you do the ACPP.. you will only get @ 150+/-TT at ATP... 140+/- multi and 10+/- single.

From their website (my additions in parentheses):

200 Hours Logged Time (All hours put in your logbook... which includes the following:)

  • 75 Hours Multi-Engine Cross-Country (Logged under Multi & PIC)
  • 65 Hours Multi-Engine Instruction & Flight Checks (Logged under Multi & PIC, with the exception of your first 6 hours of training for the Multi-Private, and the Citation ride... those will be Dual Received)
  • Citation Jet Transition (included in the 65 hours above)
  • 50 Hours Multi-Engine FTD (Logged at FTD time and Dual Received, and while it is a ME Level 3 FTD... it is not logged as "Multi-time")
  • 10 Hours Single-Engine Time (Logged at PIC and SE time)
The bolded numbers above are what will actually be logged in your logbook as flight time. So... that's about 150 in addition to your 100+ comes to 250+.

It is confusing... and one of the things that I do wish that ATP would clarify just a bit more on their website. But... what I listed above are the facts.


Bob
 
I've never been a fan of "seniority is everything" marketing.

As Capt Bob points out, seniority is important in the career. But there is a lot more too it....

They should say "luck is everything", because that's a lot more accurate. Saying that doesn't make you wanna be in a rush to call ATP, though, so it doesn't work for them.

Let's say, for example, Expressjet's current non-branded flying tanks. All the guys on the bottom fourth of the list at CoEx are gone. That's seniority for ya.

Also, while seniority is nice, rushing your training to chase that carrot is a bad call. I'd rather see a guy take the time to become a well rounded, seasoned, aviator, before moving up the ladder, than see one who wants to go from zero to hero in min time cause he things seniority is everything.

That's just me, though.
 
DE727UPS said:
I've never been a fan of "seniority is everything" marketing.

As Capt Bob points out, seniority is important in the career. But there is a lot more too it....

They should say "luck is everything", because that's a lot more accurate. Saying that doesn't make you wanna be in a rush to call ATP, though, so it doesn't work for them.

Let's say, for example, Expressjet's current non-branded flying tanks. All the guys on the bottom fourth of the list at CoEx are gone. That's seniority for ya.

Also, while seniority is nice, rushing your training to chase that carrot is a bad call. I'd rather see a guy take the time to become a well rounded, seasoned, aviator, before moving up the ladder, than see one who wants to go from zero to hero in min time cause he things seniority is everything.

That's just me, though.
Click to expand...

I Guess everyone has their own thoughts on it, I have always been the guy to "Rush" I guess. I had a 4 yr biz degree when I was 24 while my High shcool buddies were "taken their time", I was making 40K starting while they were pulling down 25k a yr.. Now I am working on a second 4 yr degree... I would like the ATP route because in 90 days I get where some take 2yrs (nothing at all wrong with taking your time)...however, its just the type of person I am...
 
Captain_Bob said:
You'd "get it" if:
  • You missed the hiring window for the airline of your choice by a few weeks and then had to make a decision to fly for another regional that may not have as good of a contract, or had bases in hard to commute cities.
  • You ended up getting hired at the airline of your choice towards the end of a hiring spree and thus would have to sit at the bottom of the seniority list on reserve for an extended period of time.
  • You sit at the bottom end of the seniority list with min days off, in a crash-pad, under the rule of crew scheduling while someone who was hired just 1 class prior is enjoying a line, more days off, the ability to trade/drop/add trips while being able to commute without a crash-pad.
  • You missed upgrade by a few numbers while your buddy who got hired a week earlier will be getting that PIC turbine, while you wait patiently hoping that your airline get's the airframe's they were promising to get and that the get to keep the contracts they currently have.
  • You watch your buddy getting his PIC turbine time even though he may be on reserve... while you are still sitting as an FO patiently waiting for another slot that may or may not come anytime soon... meanwhile your buddy may be eligible for a major a year or two before you even though you two were hired within a week of each other.
  • Your getting hired just 6 months sooner than another guy could mean the difference between furlough or a decent progressive career path in this industry, which in turn could turn into a year or more at the top end of your payscale prior to retirement... which would more than make up for a $50k loan with interest that you took out 35 years ago.
  • etc.
Those are just a few examples... I understand folks resentment toward flight school marketing... but there is still some reality to the seniority arguement... and while "seniority" may not be "everything"... it certainly is "something".

Overall though... it's one of those arguements that no one can really win due to the unstable nature of this industry.

For me... Seniority has been my best friend thoughout my career at XJT. However... I have a few buddies that got hired almost 2 years ago at PSA and they are still on reserve. At the time they got hired they were told that more airframes, a new contract for flying, and several hundred more FO's would be coming online soon... and... that never happened. So... the "seniority" thing didn't work out too well for them. However... if they would have left after one year of being on reserve at PSA and came over to XJT... then they'd be lineholders now with great schedules and upgrade right around the corner. But... it's hard to make that jump because people just think that "man... I've already put this much time in at my airline... I just don't want to risk starting over again at another."

So... like it or not... "seniority" is a reality... and it will affect your life from the time you get hired 121... to the time you retire.

eagledriver... just an FYI... if you do the ACPP.. you will only get @ 150+/-TT at ATP... 140+/- multi and 10+/- single.

From their website (my additions in parentheses):

200 Hours Logged Time (All hours put in your logbook... which includes the following:)
  • 75 Hours Multi-Engine Cross-Country (Logged under Multi & PIC)
  • 65 Hours Multi-Engine Instruction & Flight Checks (Logged under Multi & PIC, with the exception of your first 6 hours of training for the Multi-Private, and the Citation ride... those will be Dual Received)
  • Citation Jet Transition (included in the 65 hours above)
  • 50 Hours Multi-Engine FTD (Logged at FTD time and Dual Received, and while it is a ME Level 3 FTD... it is not logged as "Multi-time")
  • 10 Hours Single-Engine Time (Logged at PIC and SE time)
The bolded numbers above are what will actually be logged in your logbook as flight time. So... that's about 150 in addition to your 100+ comes to 250+.

It is confusing... and one of the things that I do wish that ATP would clarify just a bit more on their website. But... what I listed above are the facts.


Bob
Click to expand...

Ohh okay it make sense now.... thanks guy!! Ya they need to clear that up asap.
 
meyers9163 said:
But like many airlines i'm nearly positive ATP gets some sort of fuel discount based soley on the amount the use. I could be mistaken and all but I highly doubt they pay full price.
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They do, most flight schools do. But it is not like ATP is buying their gas from the Sheikh's in Saudia Arabia directly. The profit margin is somewhat thinner for the business-to-consumer sales guy. Sometimes the discount may be as little as a nickel or less per gallon.
 
I think many people misconstrue some of the reasons pilots choose these flight schools to get their ratings done. My number one reason in choosing ATP was the ability to receive all the rationings I needed in an environment that took me away from the everyday busy elements of life (job, social life, money, etc.). It took me over a year to get my private license due to these circumstances. Whether I received my PPL in a month or as long as it took me, the training itself would not differ. In fact it took even longer because I was back in the plane relearning many of the things I had forgotten between lessons.

So I thought, if I need to get these ratings to become a CFI, I’m going look for a school that can offer a program that achieves this goal in an adequate timeframe. Otherwise, I would get the same training, the same ratings, but it would take me over two years going at the same pace as my PPL. The time it takes is important especially taking into account that you can’t be jobless and pay for a school forever, so why not get it done in a short time, minus the job, minus the social life and allow complete immersion and focus into your training, and then come out of the program ready to instruct and continue to learn the never-ending aspects of flying. It’s not a race to get into the regionals for many people; it’s just an efficient way to receive your ratings in a complete immersion environment that works best for some.

Jtsastre
 
jtsastre said:
I think many people misconstrue some of the reasons pilots choose these flight schools to get their ratings done. My number one reason in choosing ATP was the ability to receive all the rationings I needed in an environment that took me away from the everyday busy elements of life (job, social life, money, etc.). It took me over a year to get my private license due to these circumstances. Whether I received my PPL in a month or as long as it took me, the training itself would not differ. In fact it took even longer because I was back in the plane relearning many of the things I had forgotten between lessons.

So I thought, if I need to get these ratings to become a CFI, I’m going look for a school that can offer a program that achieves this goal in an adequate timeframe. Otherwise, I would get the same training, the same ratings, but it would take me over two years going at the same pace as my PPL. The time it takes is important especially taking into account that you can’t be jobless and pay for a school forever, so why not get it done in a short time, minus the job, minus the social life and allow complete immersion and focus into your training, and then come out of the program ready to instruct and continue to learn the never-ending aspects of flying. It’s not a race to get into the regionals for many people; it’s just an efficient way to receive your ratings in a complete immersion environment that works best for some.

Jtsastre
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Getting yourself away from everyday life is very important in my opinion. I am trying to get my ratings while working and continuing normal life. It is HARD; Harder than I thought it would be. As you mentioned in your experience, just getting through the PPL is taking more time than I thought it would. I would much prefer to be in an environment that removes me from everything else, but unfortunately, the cost is prohibitive and the loan will break me.

If you got the dough, Mom and Dad got the dough, or you really think you can handle that loan afterwards...do it. <(Load's Newbie tool opinion only. Please do not flame)
 
My whole gripe is with the people who go to ATP, and think their chit doesn't stink and they demand the right to fly jets. A racecar driver could do a 90 day accelerated program, but that doesn't mean he (or she) has any business in NASCAR. A medical student could take an advanced 90 day surgical program, but that doesnt mean he has any business performing surgery. I just cant stand the people with the "I need ATP and I need regionals now". It's almost like they believe the second need can't be achieved without doing the first.

For those of you that dont have the regional airline boner, I understand your point in wanting to be in a 24-7 no distraction aviation enviorment. I really do. It's just I don't see many people with that attitude, who doesnt have the "I need the regonals attitude" lately with ATP. To all ones own, I just think its a lot of money to spend. oh well, goodluck
 
MikeOH58;616169 For those of you that dont have the regional airline boner said:
:yup:

It is Called AIRLINE transport Professionals ya know! hehe. Just joshin yo.

I want to go to the regionals. Heck I'll even say it worse...I want to go to the regionals so I can build time fast and get a corporate gig. That should really set some fireworks off!
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Nothing wrong with wanting to go to the regionals. The majority of civillian pilots who want to fly for a major airline will have gone through a regional. I guess it's just the way you do it and your attitude
 
I actually do agree. Perhaps I am a bit of a perfectionist, so it naturally appeals to me to try and be a good pilot, not just pass the minimums, before becoming a pilot as a profession.
 
MikeOH58 said:
My whole gripe is with the people who go to ATP, and think their chit doesn't stink and they demand the right to fly jets. A racecar driver could do a 90 day accelerated program, but that doesn't mean he (or she) has any business in NASCAR. A medical student could take an advanced 90 day surgical program, but that doesnt mean he has any business performing surgery. I just cant stand the people with the "I need ATP and I need regionals now". It's almost like they believe the second need can't be achieved without doing the first.

For those of you that dont have the regional airline boner, I understand your point in wanting to be in a 24-7 no distraction aviation enviorment. I really do. It's just I don't see many people with that attitude, who doesnt have the "I need the regonals attitude" lately with ATP. To all ones own, I just think its a lot of money to spend. oh well, goodluck
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Mike, I understand what your saying, yes, ATP offers "placement" after you graduate... and its likely that most have the regional boner.... however, I never said I was doing it to land regional asap.. once I graduate from the program I'll be back in Utah doing the CFI gig for a while. My CFI told me you really learn to fly when teaching others. I agree, I'll be going on a 90 day leave at my job which is already approved, come back to my job, and do CFi on the side... Hell If I can have a wife, 2 kids, full time school, and job. I can handle doing the CFi gig and still working at my job. And then after a while I'll start sending resumes out and looking. Hell with two 4 year degrees, one in business management, and the other in aviation science... I am sure I will land something good.
 
why do people go to ATP for that airline pilot program, i understand for an inividual rating if you have time constraints and you need "your multi in 4 days" but there is no need in going for that airline program, just do it the old fashion way like going to a regular flight school or a mom and pop fbo.
 
I'll tell you why, one I am married, 2 kids, work full time, school full time, at the rate I was going at the local school it will take forever, and every flight will be a recap of the last. Second, I show up at the local FBO I get unprofessional training, I show up at my scheduled time and…..

ME: "Where is my CFI and plane," ohhh some new guy, (A walk in) wanted to learn to fly so uhh he's up in the C172 now, their headed to PTL (75nm away) But I was scheduled and blocked for the C172, for 2 hrs of time to day.

FBO: Uhh sorry I can reschedule you if you like...

ME: No its fine, I took time off of work, can I take 45L up for some solo work?, uhh let me check......

FBO: (30 minutes later) uhh we don't know where 45L is, no one scheduled for it... I'll see if I can find out where it is.

ME: You lost a freaking plane....omg....



Its always something… it took 13 months to get my PPL because of similar problems. If you want to take it the so called “Normal way” Go ahead.

I learned how to swim faster than all my friends, because they went to their local swimming pool, while I ran to the lake and jumped in…

And I was out swimming with all the hot chicks… while my friends were wearing floatis… Its not for everyone, but its for me.
 
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