Airline Ads Depict Corporate Jets As Freeloaders

Tiger815 said:
Because the system is not there to support the G-V, the VLJ or the C182, it is there to support the airlines.

Ask yourself this question. If there were no GA aircraft, how much of the National Airspace infrastructure could the FAA get rid of?

The answer is a very, very small percentage of the overall system. The rest is required to support the airlines and therefore it IS FAIR that the airlines pay a greater percentage of the cost of a system that is heavily weighted to support their operations.
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The point is, you're using the system. I may not see you at FL 450, but I see you at the hold short line. I see you in the Terminal airspace. I see you in the Low structure.

You need to pay for the services you use. You don't want Cable TV, don't hook up and you won't have to pay. You don't want to pay to use the airspace, fly VFR below 18K.

Simple.
 
Velocipede said:
The point is, you're using the system. I may not see you at FL 450, but I see you at the hold short line. I see you in the Terminal airspace. I see you in the Low structure.

You need to pay for the services you use. You don't want Cable TV, don't hook up and you won't have to pay. You don't want to pay to use the airspace, fly VFR below 18K.

Simple.
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You're one of those people that likes to go to dinner with a group, buy the most expensive food and drinks on the menu, and then insist on splitting the bill evenly even though the rest of the group had the chicken with water to drink, aren't you?
 
http://www.kansas.com/101/story/65263.html

Here's a recent article. I still can't find from either side the breakdown in costing in regards to this issue. Just a bunch of words strewn together from both sides...each saying they think the status quo is fine or broken.

If someone wanted me to pick a side...they better bring out some numbers.

Anyway...it looks like the proposal only affects corporate jets and turboprops. I'm at least glad to see non turbine aircraft unaffected.

One thing I know from experience in the aviation industry...whatever the administration wants...they get. No strikes, no negotiations...just adminstered policy...in one form or another.
 
Minnesota_Flyer said:
You're one of those people that likes to go to dinner with a group, buy the most expensive food and drinks on the menu, and then insist on splitting the bill evenly even though the rest of the group had the chicken with water to drink, aren't you?
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If so, then you're the guy who ordered the chicken and left without paying any of the check.

Why should my company and the rest of the airlines foot the bill for corporate fatcats and hobbyist pilots.

And why do you feel you have the right to use the system without paying for it?
 
Velocipede said:
And why do you feel you have the right to use the system without paying for it?
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I am already paying. Look at my fuel costs, my registration. And the big one....MY TAXES!!!!

Not sure what you do/fly/etc., but if you had to pay an additional $15 a flight to get your IFR, would you be flying?
 
If the airlines think they are having a pilot shortage now, just wait until there are no new up and coming pilots because no one can afford to learn to fly anymore because of the astronomical costs. Good thinking... If for nothing else, the only benefit i see coming out of user fees is the increase in pilot pay in the long run due to supply and demand.

Has anyone thought about this?
 
Velocipede said:
Why should my company and the rest of the airlines foot the bill for corporate fatcats and hobbyist pilots.
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Why should my passengers pay more money to inept airlines?

If airlines weren't treating their passengers so poorly, maybe they wouldn't be buying their own jets.

Fact:
Airlines pay .043 cents per gallon tax to the Trust Fund
Corp jet fuel is taxed .218 cents per gallon.
Gen Aviation fuel is taxed .193 cents to the Fund
http://www.natca.org/assets/Document...esearch2.0.pdf

Fact:
GA traffic at JFK - 2%
GA traffic at EWR - 3%
GA traffic at LGA - 3%

Operators of light general aviation aircraft contribute $60 million a year and corporate jets pay $210 million annually to the trust fund through fuel taxes. http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/la-userfees.html

My boss has an extra $40 Billion to invest this year. Maybe he will buy the ATC system and restrict airline ops. The FAAs 2008 budget is only $14Billion, what a bargain!
 
I didn't know that at airports corporate jets are allowed to skip ahead of the airlines and leave first.

I am glad I am now so informed.

In reality, I rarely ever see corporate jets using the same airports I've flown into or out of. I mostly see a long line of RJs and some heavy metal. Don't most corporate jets and GA in general use other airports? If I have my jet and am flying to the city or jersey, am I not going to fly into teterboro instead of la guardia?
 
Velocipede said:
And why do you feel you have the right to use the system without paying for it?
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I thought there was something I paid called federal taxes or something. Let me bust out my checkbook here -- yup, cut a check to some organization called the Internal Revenue Service on April 16.

Something about how that organization collects taxes for federal government services or something comes to mind.
 
Velocipede said:
The point is, you're using the system. I may not see you at FL 450, but I see you at the hold short line. I see you in the Terminal airspace. I see you in the Low structure.

You need to pay for the services you use. You don't want Cable TV, don't hook up and you won't have to pay. You don't want to pay to use the airspace, fly VFR below 18K.

Simple.
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And this is what is going to get people killed. But you don't care, do you? Of course not, because you're already flying at FL 350 or whaever it is you're at. So again, it's not about charging this, that and the other, it's that you don't have to worry about it anymore and so screw the little guy. Nice work there mr. flight levels, nice work. :sarcasm:
 
http://aviationweek.typepad.com/airports/2007/02/let_the_games_b.html

Here's an AWST article.

It appears that airlines pay a 7% excise tax that goes into the aviation trust fund. Someone else posted that GA pays a 50 cent/gallon tax on fuel to be distributed into the trust fund. I can't find that number, but the below info is from the US Dept of Transportation website regarding the funding of transportation trust funds.


Airport and Airways Trust Fund (AATF)
The Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982, as amended by the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Acts of 1990 and 1993, the Small Business Job Protection Act of 1996, and the Taxpayers Relief Act of 1997, provides for the receipts received in the Treasury from the passenger ticket tax and certain other taxes paid by airport and airway users to be transferred to the Airport and Airways Trust Fund (AATF). Effective October 1, 1997, the Taxpayers Relief Act of 1997 extends the aviation excise taxes for 10 years and includes the following major provisions (FAA, 1999):

retains existing freight weigh bill, general aviation fuel and gas taxes, and 6 dollars departure tax on domestic flights to and from Alaska and Hawaii;
converts the 10 percent ad valorem tax on domestic passenger tickets to a combination of ad valorem and flight segment tax over three years beginning October 1, 1997;
imposes a new 7.5 percent tax on payments to airlines for frequent flyer and similar awards by banks and credit card companies, merchants, and frequent flyer program partners (other airlines, hotels, or rental car companies and other businesses);
increases the current 6 dollars international departure tax to 12 dollars per passenger and adds a 12 dollars international arrival tax;
lowers tax rates on flights to certain rural airports to 7.5 percent without a flight segment component; and
transfers revenues from the 4.3 cents-per-gallon aviation fuel tax currently dedicated to reduce the national U.S. deficit from the General Fund to the AATF.
Most of this trust fund receipts is used to finance FAA’s capital programs, namely, Facilities & Equipment; Research, Engineering & Development; and the Airport Improvement Program. Within certain limits set by Congress, some of the remaining money is used to cover operation and maintenance expenses of the FAA. The portion of the FAA’s operation and maintenance expenses not paid from the trust fund revenues are financed by general funds of the Treasury.



Let's look at the revenue to the Dept of Transportation from a 767 flying a two hour flight and a Beechjet making the same two hour flight.

The 767 has 250 passengers paying an average of $250 for the segment. The Beechjet burns 800 gallons of gas for a two hour flight (this is a guess...I hope it's close).

So the 767 (250 * 250 *.07 = $4375) pays $4,375 to the government for the trust fund.

The Beechjet using the fuel tax (800 * .5 = $400) pays $400 to the trust fund for the same services.

I'm not sure this is right...but pulling the data I've found so far...it's a look at the difference in revenue for the FAA between the two different types of aircraft.
 
B767Driver said:
Let's look at the revenue to the Dept of Transportation from a 767 flying a two hour flight and a Beechjet making the same two hour flight.

The 767 has 250 passengers paying an average of $250 for the segment. The Beechjet burns 800 gallons of gas for a two hour flight (this is a guess...I hope it's close).

So the 767 (250 * 250 *.07 = $4375) pays $4,375 to the government for the trust fund.

The citation using the fuel tax (800 * .5 = $400) pays $400 to the trust fund for the same services.

I'm not sure this is right...but pulling the data I've found so far...it's a look at the difference in revenue for the FAA between the two different types of aircraft.
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According to the FAA, their beef with the excise tax is that ticket prices have come down considerably and airplanes don't always fly full, both of which makes planning their budget harder.
 
wheelsup said:
According to the FAA, their beef with the excise tax is that ticket prices have come down considerably and airplanes don't always fly full, both of which makes planning their budget harder.
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You're right. I think it really killed the budget.
 
B767Driver said:
You're right. I think it really killed the budget.
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If you read the funding reports you will see that the budget has a $5 Billion surplus each year. The budget has been killed because the FAA is overusing funding. The FAA was guaranteed 20% for operations and it is using 60%. It doesn't take a rocket scientist
 
B767Driver said:
You're right. I think it really killed the budget.
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I can't tell if you were being sarcastic or not, my thought is yes. Anyway, this is from their 2008 "Budget in brief".

The budget request also emphasizes our need for
a stable funding source that is based on our costs
and the services we provide. Most of FAA’s current
funding comes from the Airport and Airway
Trust Fund, which in turn is funded primarily
through ticket taxes (and other taxes to lesser
extents). All of these taxes are scheduled to expire
in September 2007, which coincides with the
end of the current authorization for FAA programs
under Vision 100.

As it stands, there is no link between FAA’s
budget and the actual cost to provide service.
Since 2000, low-cost carriers and other factors
have changed the business of aviation. The airlines
also are favoring smaller jets. With the
number of passengers increasing and the number
of jets to carry them also on the rise, this portends
for a greater workload. Even general
aviation activity is increasing and shifting toward
high-performance jet aircraft, which increases
FAA workload without a commensurate increase
in revenue. The bottom line is that there is no
connection between revenue and workload.
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ComplexHiAv8r said:
I am already paying. Look at my fuel costs, my registration. And the big one....MY TAXES!!!!

Not sure what you do/fly/etc., but if you had to pay an additional $15 a flight to get your IFR, would you be flying?
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So, in other words, you're paying your costs. Except for the fact that you get to use the airspace and services for free. Nothing is free, my friend. If you can't afford to pay the price, you can't afford to have the hobby.

Sorry, that's life.
 
TheOneMarine said:
And this is what is going to get people killed. But you don't care, do you? Of course not, because you're already flying at FL 350 or whaever it is you're at. So again, it's not about charging this, that and the other, it's that you don't have to worry about it anymore and so screw the little guy. Nice work there mr. flight levels, nice work. :sarcasm:
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I got my tickets in the military. Now, my employer is subsidizing General and Corporate aviation. Its time for them to pay their fair share. If they can't afford to use the services, then they should stay out of controlled airspace.
 
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