Airline Ads Depict Corporate Jets As Freeloaders

NJA_Capt said:
Make a deal with you. Since we (GA) are the same size on the scope, and you want us to pay the same fees, then we expect to have access to the terminal ramps and gates.
Click to expand...

Why would you want that? That's why you fly privately...to get away from that congestion. Additionally, I don't believe those ramps and gates were built with tax money. I know Delta just spent something like $500 M to build their Boston terminal. As a matter of fact...that's a big sore spot for the legacy carriers. They spent decades and billions of dollars building the infrastructure of the airline system...then some small carrier comes to the airport authority and demands to have lease access to gates. Never mind, they have no capital investment in those places. That never seemed fair to me. But offer low fares...and congressmen demand they have access to the facilities. It's not a fair game.

I haven't seen all the data in a long time regarding the costing inolved in this issue (my AW&ST subscription ran out and haven't renewed it)...but if you look at the taxes itemized on an airline ticket...there's an awful lot to add up. I'd be curious to see an audit of the fees, taxes and funding use.

I wonder if a regulated industry would add up to a more rational funding of the Aviation Trust Fund?

Anyway, I don't think user fees will add anything good to the promotion or safety of GA. But then again, I don't think of corporate jets as GA, really. I want to ensure the guy who owns a C172 can fly a two hour IFR XC to see his family with the government supporting the cost of his weather planning and air traffic control.
 
Who doesn't pay a federal tax on fuel? That's right the airlines are exempt from that.

GA and bizjets pay for ATC through fuel taxes. The airlines pay through "user fees".
 
NJA_Capt said:
Wrong. You can't blame VLJs because there are only 3 in service (not thousands). Separation is worse because 3 RJs are taking up the runway, taxiway and gate space that was previously occupied by 1 DC9/737. Now ATC is trying to space 3 planes instead of 1. Most RJs are cruising slower than a straightwing Citation causing enroute delays. They are also clogging upper flight levels and delaying larger/faster airliners and corp aircraft. If airlines would use widebodies on long domestic routes instead of using multiple narrowbodies/CRJs they wouldn't be having the "space" problems.

Funny, a few years ago, ATC said if we implement DRVSM we will not have the congestion. How'd that work out for ya?
Click to expand...

Oh yes, I meant that in the future VLJs will cause similar problems as today's RJs. I know they are only prototypes at this time.
 
Hey NJACapt, I don't know about you but I'm not feeling quite so welcome around here anymore.

:(
 
Fuel prices are already killing GA, if they really want to stick a fork in it this is probably all it will take. Bad idea. If they want to charge guys operating planes over a certain weight, say 12.5k lbs then I guess that would be "acceptable" (because let's face it, private and fractional jets are a luxury item and our government can get away with heavy taxes on "luxury" items) but putting any more burden on the weekend warrior just seems wrong at this point.

Ideally I'd be against charging anyone more but I guess the money to continually update ATC technology and the national aviation ifrastructure has to come from somewhere.
 
Alchemy said:
Fuel prices are already killing GA, if they really want to stick a fork in it this is probably all it will take. Bad idea. If they want to charge guys operating planes over a certain weight, say 12.5k lbs then I guess that would be "acceptable" (because let's face it, private and fractional jets are a luxury item and our government can get away with heavy taxes on "luxury" items) but putting any more burden on the weekend warrior just seems wrong at this point.

Ideally I'd be against charging anyone more but I guess the money to continually update ATC technology and the national aviation ifrastructure has to come from somewhere.
Click to expand...

As I recall, the proposals on the table would have no effect on the weekend warriors. Don't recall any specifics though. And I really haven't brought myself current on the proposals in several months...so I don't really know what is on the table.

I will say the advertisement was in pretty poor taste.
 
SteveC said:
Hey NJACapt, I don't know about you but I'm not feeling quite so welcome around here anymore.:(
Click to expand...
Corp aircraft are a convenient scapegoat for the airlines. The general public thinks Mr. Monopoly is flying his "personal" jet to his next vacation. The airlines cry to the masses that Mr. M is delaying their trip to Aunt B's 50th anniversary and by the way, he has free access to the skies. The gen public has no way to know the facts, and of course......the airlines would never lie to their customers.

I wonder how many airliners are donated to fly the Special Olympics every year?

"...at least 300 Citations that will transport more than 1,800 Special Olympics athletes..." http://www.2006nationalgames.org/news/pdf/Cessna.0306(ed).pdf​

or....

Corp Angel Network? ​

"Corporate Angel Network (CAN) arranges free flights to treatment for cancer patients using empty seats on corporate flights. Since its founding 25 years ago, CAN has grown to include 530 participating corporations..." http://www.corpangelnetwork.org/news/index.html​
 
Somebody mentioned they are not sure the different fees of an airline ticket..

You have a US Sales Tax (7 and something percent)
Departure Tax: $3.40 per departure
Security Fee: $2.50 per departure
and a Passenger Facility Charge: anywhere from $0.00 to $4.50 depending on the departure airport

It adds up. That said, the only folks getting rich in this industry seems to be the local airport authorities. Take a walk into your local office sometime. It is crazy what the mostly GOVERNMENT run facilities charge airlines. It seems to me that they could redirect those profits to make the improvements needed instead of the wood paneling and recess lighting for their offices and charging GA folks.
 
If the airlines wouldn't schedule 100 flights within ten minutes of each other, maybe we wouldn't have all those congestion problems.

But that can't be it. It's gotta be because of dem eleeetists.
 
joel_MQY said:
Somebody mentioned they are not sure the different fees of an airline ticket..

You have a US Sales Tax (7 and something percent)
Departure Tax: $3.40 per departure
Security Fee: $2.50 per departure
and a Passenger Facility Charge: anywhere from $0.00 to $4.50 depending on the departure airport
Click to expand...

Here are the extra charges (beyond ticket and tax) I paid yesterday when I purchased a ticket for IAD-ATL.

[SIZE=-1]Federal Segment Tax: $[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6.80[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Airport Passenger Facility Charge: $[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]9.00[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]September 11th Security Fee: $[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5.00[/SIZE]
 
New York was doing SWAP yesterday. Holding was "indefinite". Luckily we made it in only to sit on the ground in LGA for 1:30.

As I looked around while waiting, for every 2 mainline flights I saw a small RJ - the 30-50 seat variety.

When you are on with tower/approach/center, 8 out of 10 radio calls are for airlines, not corporate operators.

Maybe the government should put some of the millions of people on welfare to work instead of just sitting on the sofa collecting free $$ instead of continually coming after hard working people if they are serious about budgets. Also, when the government stops building $50 million bridges to nowhere I'll start listening to increased fees.
 
NJA_Capt said:
Make a deal with you. Since we (GA) are the same size on the scope, and you want us to pay the same fees, then we expect to have access to the terminal ramps and gates.

GA aircraft use GA ramps. We are not responsible for fees that will be used to build terminals that we don't use.
Click to expand...

I really, really doubt your customers want to use the terminals and gates. If they did, they'd be subjected to all the ridiculous TSA security BS associated with airline travel. So, if they're going through [size=-4](lack of)[/size] security.....they should just save the money and fly AirGreyhound. :rolleyes:
 
The solution is simple. Let the left and enviro nuts have everything they want. And when the system they hate so much and life and freedoms we enjoy come crashing down, they will be begging for forgiveness. Also I love when a rich leftest, says they are trying to help the common american. I can not wait for this to pass and the law has exemptions, so the politicans do not have to pay, just like the minimum wage increase. Nancy some how got her own business exempt from the increase. Interesting.
 
:(I'm amazed at how ignorant and naive the general public and congress are to this issue. People have no idea how dependent our economy is on General aviation - its impact is HUGE! That package that was overnighted from the small cargo operation or the lifeflight taking a sick passenger to better care etc. etc. User fees will drastically affect our economy and negatively affect safety for the MAJORITY of aviation as a whole. If you are unsettled by 300 hour pilots getting hired now it will only get worse because who will be able to afford training, or let alone live on a CFI's salary with user fees? I'm generally for less government and fewer taxes - however the issues of privitization and user fees is a dark path we DON"T want to go down. Its destroyed GA in other countries. Why do you think we train so many foreign pilots? Our ATC system is a PUBLIC service AND necessity! Which I firmly belive for this reason should be funded and controlled by the government! Anyone tried to call FSS lately? Privatization has worked wonders there.... I don't even bother anymore because of the excessive hold times. I think we need to pump more resources into our ATC system with upgraded equipment and decent salaries but privatization and / or user fees is NOT the answer! Resist the temptation to look down from your heavy metal 121 gig and not care for your GA brothers because we all need to stand together on this and its whats best for our country and economy. It seems only natural that upper management would want to pass all the costs they can on everyone else after gutting salaries anyway. Also face the facts in Washington, it doesn't matter what side of the political spectrum you are on there are far too many politicians that would love to cut the FAA's budget and pass that cost onto someone else other than the taxpayer, either to tout their great tax cuts or divert the funds to their own special government programs.

Here is a great site from the other side of the issue thats worth a read.

http://www.gaservingamerica.org/index.htm
 
wheelsup said:
New York was doing SWAP yesterday. Holding was "indefinite". Luckily we made it in only to sit on the ground in LGA for 1:30.

As I looked around while waiting, for every 2 mainline flights I saw a small RJ - the 30-50 seat variety.

When you are on with tower/approach/center, 8 out of 10 radio calls are for airlines, not corporate operators.
Click to expand...

I could not have said it better myself...

This ad really annoyed me. The airlines... as a whole, a group that has spent half their lives in bankruptcy, are going to tell us how to modernize and the run the ATC system ? As bad a job as the FAA does these guys would make the FAA look like superstars. I'll agree... many aspects of the ATC system are old and outdated... but they are SAFE ! And SAFETY is our number one job. Paper flight strips and strip marking are considered by many as an "old" way of doing things but when done right they are a very safe way to manage traffic.

The airlines leave out how they are taxing the system... Delta Airlines matches jetBlue out of JFK almost flight for flight... you see a JBU depart and next is DAL going to the same destination. This alone has put a significant strain on JFK and the sectors that work this traffic. This is happening all over the country with different airlines... the system can only handle so much traffic.
 
That ad is totally asinine.

I just did a quick look at all the airborne aircraft in FlightAware. I don't know where they're getting that horse poo about there being twice as many of "them".

Code: 
			  Acft	  Pct
Large Jets		  3591	 68.2%
Corporate Jets		   699	 13.3%
Cabin-Class Turboprops	   334	  6.3%
Piston Engine		   639	 12.1%

Even if it was a case of everyone else vs. the large jet operators that's still nowhere close to "twice as many."

Now of those passenger jets, 1228, or 34% of them, have less than 100 seats, which is still twice as many as all the corporate jets up at the same time. So, which "them" is that stupid ad talking about?
 
Do you guys feel that turbulence?

That's just some politico trying to shake some money from the tree.
 
Velocipede said:
Why shouldn't each jet pay an equal share of operating in the airspace? A G-V uses EXACTLY the same space as a 747 in flight.
Click to expand...

Because the system is not there to support the G-V, the VLJ or the C182, it is there to support the airlines.

Ask yourself this question. If there were no GA aircraft, how much of the National Airspace infrastructure could the FAA get rid of?

The answer is a very, very small percentage of the overall system. The rest is required to support the airlines and therefore it IS FAIR that the airlines pay a greater percentage of the cost of a system that is heavily weighted to support their operations.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top