Airline Ads Depict Corporate Jets As Freeloaders
- Thread starter mtflyer
- Start date
flyover
New Member
Absolutely one-sided, as it is intended to be.
Another interesting dynamic will be the call to reduce air traffic by the enviro-nuts. I saw an interview on a British channel where the interviewer was pressing the guest to justify discount air travel when there was a need to reduce air travel across the board to stop global warming.
Meanwhile in the US many conservatives are saying if hypocrites like Al Gore and Laurie David keep coming after middle class Americans then they want to go after Gore's and David's and Oprah's et al Gulfstream jets.
Right now a pretty challenging time to be in the air transportation business.
Another interesting dynamic will be the call to reduce air traffic by the enviro-nuts. I saw an interview on a British channel where the interviewer was pressing the guest to justify discount air travel when there was a need to reduce air travel across the board to stop global warming.
Meanwhile in the US many conservatives are saying if hypocrites like Al Gore and Laurie David keep coming after middle class Americans then they want to go after Gore's and David's and Oprah's et al Gulfstream jets.
Right now a pretty challenging time to be in the air transportation business.
skydog
New Member
The corporate airplane is an alternative to the BS associated with airline travel. The corporate jet is popular because it avoids problems caused by 1) an airline industry that has grown by leaps and bounds since deregulation, and 2) An antiquated ATC system that has not kept up with demand.
So instead of fixing the problem that exists, the airlines, because they see an opportunity to profit from it, try to shift blame other than where it lies: the ATC system.
So instead of fixing the problem that exists, the airlines, because they see an opportunity to profit from it, try to shift blame other than where it lies: the ATC system.
Velocipede
New Member
Why shouldn't each jet pay an equal share of operating in the airspace? A G-V uses EXACTLY the same space as a 747 in flight.
Qgar
New Member
Realms09
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, the ad steps way outside the merits of the airline case and accusses general aviation operators of being cheating elitists actively oppressing the masses. As a general aviation operator, I take offense to that.
The ad also states "There are twice as many of them as us now," which is misleading. The general aviation fleets at outlying airports are doing nothing to make places like DFW more congested. They should only count general aviation operations at congested, airline served airports.
The main point of contention is whether ATC costs are linear or nonlinear. Does every aircraft cost the same, or do costs go up exponentially due to hub airport operations?
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
In the UK they are very concerned with the "carbon footprint" of everything. The airlines are a HUGE target given the amount of fossil fuels they consume and the hydrocarbons they emit.
At the movie premiere for "Wild Hogs", when they interviewed Travolta, the #1 thing they were concerned about was the fact that he and Tim Allen had flown over to the UK movie premiere aboard Travolta's 707, and what a HUGE carbon footprint Travolta has as an individual.
Carbon footprint is a concept I had never heard of until I arrived there...certainly something we don't think/talk about in the US.
I think of it like this.
One airplane with 200 people on it flying from LAX to DFW is leaps and bounds more environmentally friendly than those 200 people driving say, 160 cars, perhaps most SUV's and other low efficiency autos on the interstate freeway system.
Especially when you start factoring in idling time sitting at stoplights, stop signs and in traffic.
One airplane with 200 people on it flying from LAX to DFW is leaps and bounds more environmentally friendly than those 200 people driving say, 160 cars, perhaps most SUV's and other low efficiency autos on the interstate freeway system.
Especially when you start factoring in idling time sitting at stoplights, stop signs and in traffic.
DV8Pilot
DPE
OK... keep that in mind when you have to pay $25 for each IFR flight plan you need to file in order to get your rating... the additional $5 for a 800-WXBRIEF call... $10 for Class C services... $15 for Class B services... $10 for flight following... $5 surcharge for operating from "impacted airports" (KPRC, KSMO, KDVT, KSDL, KCQ...)... I'll stop now in case the someone is looking for ideas for the user fee bill.
Take a good look at any country that has implemented user fees and see how well their GA is surviving (Australia for example).
... and I'll step off my soap box now.
anic:DV8
TheOneMarine
Well-Known Member
OK... keep that in mind when you have to pay $25 for each IFR flight plan you need to file in order to get your rating... the additional $5 for a 800-WXBRIEF call... $10 for Class C services... $15 for Class B services... $10 for flight following... $5 surcharge for operating from "impacted airports" (KPRC, KSMO, KDVT, KSDL, KCQ...)... I'll stop now in case the someone is looking for ideas for the user fee bill.
Take a good look at any country that has implemented user fees and see how well their GA is surviving (Australia for example).
... and I'll step off my soap box now.
DV8
Good point, I can see where this will end. "Hey, lets get flight following/file IFR to be safe." "What?! And pay $45 extra bucks, screw that, just go it alone and lets fly to the boondock airport." *putt, putt, poof* and nobody will ever find them. Good idea FAA and the airlines will just sit back and laugh.
RookiePilot
Well-Known Member
Good idea FAA and the airlines will just sit back and laugh. Posted By TheOneMarine.
The question I don't quite understand is that an airline cannot move without many people, but absolutely will not move without the guys upfront in the office.
Posted By TheOneMarine.The question I don't quite understand is that an airline cannot move without many people, but absolutely will not move without the guys upfront in the office.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
How many corporate jet operators have been given over $50 Billion in bailout money? (Not including prior to 9/11)
How many corp jet operators are given subsidies by local governments?
How many airlines pay property tax on multi million dollar jets?
How many airlines pay $500 landing fees to airport authorities.
Why has the FAA used 40% more of the trust funds than they are alloted?
Why can corp operators make a profit carrying 1 passenger and airlines can't make a profit carrying 200?
If a corp department can't manage itself it is cut/sold. When airlines can't manage themselves they beg for government help.
Dear Airlines, Here is a clue: Charge what the service is worth and quit wasting time trying to undercut each other.
How many corp jet operators are given subsidies by local governments?
How many airlines pay property tax on multi million dollar jets?
How many airlines pay $500 landing fees to airport authorities.
Why has the FAA used 40% more of the trust funds than they are alloted?
Why can corp operators make a profit carrying 1 passenger and airlines can't make a profit carrying 200?
If a corp department can't manage itself it is cut/sold. When airlines can't manage themselves they beg for government help.
Dear Airlines, Here is a clue: Charge what the service is worth and quit wasting time trying to undercut each other.
Velocipede
New Member
Here's one back at you NJA: Your footprint in the ATC system with 6 fatcats is the same as mine with 158 average Joes. Pay your share.
And for GA folks: Aviation is expensive. Pay your share.
Over.
And for GA folks: Aviation is expensive. Pay your share.
Over.
Nick
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat:
It is unfortunate to see prices go up for the GA sector but it seems to be like GA has been getting away with a great deal for decades when compared to the airlines.
edit: That said, I don't support most of the user fee proposals I've read about so far except the ones that apply to corporate aviation.
Realms09
Well-Known Member
Of course. AOPA and NBAA cost studies say I am.
In the event that I am not, all transportation systems are subsidized. Why not the general aviation transportation system?
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
Wrong. You can't blame VLJs because there are only 3 in service (not thousands). Separation is worse because 3 RJs are taking up the runway, taxiway and gate space that was previously occupied by 1 DC9/737. Now ATC is trying to space 3 planes instead of 1. Most RJs are cruising slower than a straightwing Citation causing enroute delays. They are also clogging upper flight levels and delaying larger/faster airliners and corp aircraft. If airlines would use widebodies on long domestic routes instead of using multiple narrowbodies/CRJs they wouldn't be having the "space" problems.
Funny, a few years ago, ATC said if we implement DRVSM we will not have the congestion. How'd that work out for ya?
TheOneMarine
Well-Known Member
That makes great sense for those of us who went through training not having to pay for it. But I guess since we're done, screw the next generation to go through right? Sounds fair to me.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter the size on the screen.
My point is that corp aircraft are paying their share NOW. First, the FAA is overusing the trust funds that were earmarked for system upgrades.
Next, the GA traffic is paying higher fuel taxes, multiple airport fees, and property taxes NOW. All of which airlines are not paying.
And.... I'm not sharing any space with airliners at FL450. I have NEVER been given priority routing over a airliner. If we are forced to "pay our way" as the airlines want, then it better darn well be FIRST COME FIRST SERVE. And the slower plane (regardless of the name stenciled on the side) will be turned for separation. Ever had your airliner turned 270 degrees so a corp jet could go by? Happens to us every day, believe me, it is costing us plenty waiting on people-buses to limp there way to the flight levels.
Make a deal with you. Since we (GA) are the same size on the scope, and you want us to pay the same fees, then we expect to have access to the terminal ramps and gates.
GA aircraft use GA ramps. We are not responsible for fees that will be used to build terminals that we don't use.
Consider this: The people pushing user fees travel on corp aircraft. Those people themselves will be forced to pay those fees. They (senators) will then expect more gov bennies to pay for the fees, which will then be passed to the taxpayers (who ride on airliners).