Newest ASA Minimums: 500/50 or 400/50

[jtrain609]

There IS a rumor that 135 duty regs are going to get revamped and the FAA is going to allow 800 hours to fly Chieftains and 99's.

But that rumor has been floating around for 3 years. I think there's also something involved in that rewrite about raising the max weight we can operate, so we'll see ATR's once that happens.

 

[KLB]

And regionals will counter with their pay going up. But 300hour FO's...unnacceptable.

Excctly! Thats the continous cycle deal I was talking about.

 

[SmitteyB]

If anyone thinks that lower minimums (right now) are due to people working for cheaper, it's just not the case, IMO.

Anyone who has taken advanced Macro or Microeconomics will see that, at least right now, this is simple case of supply and demand. It's not that airlines want 300 hour FO's in the seat, it's not the fact that the FAA doesn't care, it's that there are so many seats to fill and not enough warm bodies to fill them.

Sure there are the pilots out there that won't work for the crappy pay that is the regional airline industry, and all the props in thre world to them...I wish I had the finances to wait out a good paying job.

It's hard to blame 300 hour FOs and criticize them, because they're just trying to get to a better paying job...

I think it is a 300 hr FOs fault that they think they deserve to be sitting right seat at ASA...A big problem with the "Me Generation" is the fact that JetU, Delta Connection, Gulfstream, and a little ATP with the whole "Airline job in 300Hours!"

Hell even at McDonalds you have to run the register for 1200 hours before you upgrade to the drive-thru.

Heres some food for thought...

It's a disgrace for regionals to pay FOs $20/hr first year....but why is it ok if flight schools pay instructors $15?

Maybe the problem is at the flight school level as well...

 

[KLB]

I don't necessarily think that it has anything to do with pay, In fact, in my oringinal response to Steves questions I said that it will be a supply and demand issue. I said in order for freight companies and flight schools to be able to compete, they will have to increase pay tremendously.

 

[mastermags]

Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me. People who had to work to 1200 and 200 don't want to see anyone get hired with less than that. Airlines have always hired low timers when they needed them. My granddad used to tell me about people in his class at Eastern on the Martin 404 who had never even heard of manifold pressure before. He had guys get hired without instrument ratings. So they got extra training. I can understand the attitude of not wanting to work with severe low time guys, but to call hiring them "unnacceptable" is just wasted energy, because it will always happen.

 

[H46Bubba]

I actually beleive that these people would have jumped at the same opportunities if had been the same way back when they were time building. Just a thought. Not that I'm condoning it in any way. I know I don't feel confortable getting into the right seat of an RJ with my 400 hrs. There's a lot out there to learn and experience, even thought my wife would kill me for not getting on with the lowered mins. Besides I make more than most FO's, so it'd be a paycut.

 

[SmitteyB]

Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me. People who had to work to 1200 and 200 don't want to see anyone get hired with less than that. Airlines have always hired low timers when they needed them. My granddad used to tell me about people in his class at Eastern on the Martin 404 who had never even heard of manifold pressure before. He had guys get hired without instrument ratings. So they got extra training. I can understand the attitude of not wanting to work with severe low time guys, but to call hiring them "unnacceptable" is just wasted energy, because it will always happen.

I as well heard that in the early 80's United was hiring people without Instrument ratings as well. So...

 

[kellwolf]

Let's go back and look at the safety record in the good ole days of aviation while we're at it, too. You also have to remember that CAs were TOTALLY different back then. CRM was a non-issue, so the FO was EXPECTED to sit there, shut up and pull the gear. Now, the FO is expected to be part of the decision making process in order to increase the overall safety of the aircraft. I don't think someone with the experience of a 300 hour pilot does that. He can sit there, shut up and pull the gear, but there's not much experience to draw on to help with safety. Has that 300 hour guy had his radios and transponder fail while shooting instrument approachs in IMC at night in the rain? Took me almost 600 hours to get something like that, and it was with a student, too.

It's not sour grapes, either. Trust me. If someone had given me a job offer at 300 hours, I would have jumped on it. I would have been in over my head, but I would have taken the job anyway. I don't blame the guys that are doing that now.

As for getting "extra training...."

The regionals are short staffed as it is. They can't AFFORD to keep someone in training another month or so until they "get it." That's a month that person could be out on the line filling a seat while they train the guy behind him. If you need your hand held too long, you shouldn't be in the position. FOs here get 30 hours of OE initially, and it can be extended past that. I've heard of some guys going in the 70-80 hour mark, which is insane. When mine got extended for one extra trip, I got the "Get it soon or else" speech from my check airman. I don't know if he was trying to scare me into getting it or not, but it worked. You get tons of chances initially to get it right. You shouldn't need any extra ones.

 

[fender_jag]

I think there's gonna be an overall shortage of CFIs at all levels before long.....

I was discussing this with another CFI and a 737 Captain, and we were all in agreement about it (forthcoming CFI shortage).

I think we can all agree that not as many people are learning to fly now; and who knows what the future holds for aviation in general...

So what, then, are the implications ten, twenty years down the road?

 

[WAFlyBoy]

If anyone thinks that lower minimums (right now) are due to people working for cheaper, it's just not the case, IMO.

Lower minimums typically means less experienced pilots. In most industries, pay is commensurate with experience. I think there might be a relationship here. Perhaps people are working for cheaper due to lower minimums?

Anyone who has taken advanced Macro or Microeconomics will see that, at least right now, this is simple case of supply and demand.

There is nothing simple about supply and demand.

It's not that airlines want 300 hour FO's in the seat, it's not the fact that the FAA doesn't care, it's that there are so many seats to fill and not enough warm bodies to fill them.

I agree... minimums are lower because labor is relatively scarce (as compared to... say 5 years ago). But why, then have wages not increased? Were we not taught that a direct relationship exists between scarcity and price?

I suspect the answer (for now) is something you already eluded to: the "supply" of pilots still exists at current prices if you lower the experience requirements enough (modify barriers of entry, potentially modifying the supply curve). Hence the problem that single-pilot 135 carriers face. They cannot compete for labor in the same way.

Perhaps at some point, the market [for regional airline pilots] will dictate moving to another point on the supply curve (i.e. the market offers a higher price to bring more labor to the table). But when? After the very last 300 hour commercial pilot has a class date?

The usual disclaimer: not good, not bad.... just my 2 cents worth.

 

[WAFlyBoy]

So what, then, are the implications ten, twenty years down the road?

Well, let me tell you the implications. Pilots will once again:

Get respect
Get paid
Get chicks

Well, probably not, but it's fun to dream! You wanna get a Starbucks, Fender?

 

[kellwolf]

I agree... minimums are lower because labor is relatively scarce (as compared to... say 5 years ago). But why, then have wages not increased? Were we not taught that a direct relationship exists between scarcity and price?

Because there's something other than wages out there.....minimums. It's not like coming out of college and competing with everyone else on the same level. Essentially, the airlines have said that people with HS diplomas can now apply for the same jobs the college graduates used to get. In a way, wages HAVE come up. 5 years ago there's no way a 300 hour pilot would get $21 to fly in the right seat of a CRJ. Now he can. Before he would have been either in another job such as instructing, banner towing or driving skydivers. I know of very few of those that pay $21/hr, and the ones that do generally won't take the 300 guys either.

Perhaps at some point, the market [for regional airline pilots] will dictate moving to another point on the supply curve (i.e. the market offers a higher price to bring more labor to the table). But when? After the very last 300 hour commercial pilot has a class date?

Won't happen. Now that the airlines know they can just lower the bar and get people, they'll either keep it low or raise and lower it as needed. The only way wages will go back up is if all the 300 hour guys say "We're not going to work for peanuts," but I just don't see that happening. Call me cynical, I guess. If the options were flying an RJ for $18/hr or instructing for a year, most of them would take the lower $$$. If that weren't the case, the "get in the right seat of a CRJ in less than a year!" places wouldn't have much of a customer base.

 

[KLB]

I'm sticking to my point that 135 operators will raise there pay to keep pilots coming. Look at companies like Baron aviation. Check out their mins

http://www.baron-aviation.com/application.htm

I believe there pilots make in between $40,000 to $60,000 a year flying caravans. And they've been making that type of pay for years. It can be and will have to be done.

 

[DE727UPS]

"I as well heard that in the early 80's United was hiring people without Instrument ratings as well. So..."

Ahhhh...you're off by a couple decades there, junior. I got my IFR in 1980 and United wasn't knocking on my door. I was at Riddle in 1982 and United wasn't hiring guys right out of school, either. In fact, throughout my working my way up the career ladder from the early 80's on, United never gave me the time of day.

"Now that the airlines know they can just lower the bar and get people, they'll either keep it low or raise and lower it as needed"

I can't see how these guys are getting through training unless they are lowering the bar, there, as well. The closest I came to a "regional job" was Convair 640 F/O part 121. I can promise you, I'd never made it through training in that beast with 300 hours. More like 3000....

 

[fender_jag]

Well, let me tell you the implications. Pilots will once again:

Get respect
Get paid
Get chicks

Well, probably not, but it's fun to dream! You wanna get a Starbucks, Fender?

Thank you for your honest input, Saladfingers!

You know Atwater has a Starbucks and another one is being built next to Food 4 Less! You left too early, my friend!

 

[adreamer]

Greeting from a ground school somewhere. My classmates experiences range from high time CFIs, charter pilots, to someone who pay 26000 USD for type rating.

Yes, Regionals do need to fill the class. Everyone in my class can memorize the immediate action items, QRH usage, limitations...etc. However, when something hit the fan, you need to draw from your previous flying experiences to solve the problem you have. From what I gather so far, line CA are worry about the class I am in. Check airmen have warn about this in upgrade class - "Be ready to be flight instructor again."

For the people who want to do some RJ courses, please save your money. Company will teach you how they want you to fly the plane. The best example, my training partner, previous work at another regional airline for few months. She has to re-learn some stuffs for this airlines. Therefore, save your money.

Just my 0.02

Now, back to to study :insane:

 

[kellwolf]

Thank you for your honest input, Saladfingers!

You know Atwater has a Starbucks and another one is being built next to Food 4 Less! You left too early, my friend!

He's still mad they wouldn't grind his sorry Trader Joe's coffee in their machines.

 

[fender_jag]

He's still mad they wouldn't grind his sorry Trader Joe's coffee in their machines.

Matt, care to defend yourself from Kellwolf's accusations?

I must say that we were pretty much regulars at the nearby Starbucks.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Greeting from a ground school somewhere. My classmates experiences range from high time CFIs, charter pilots, to someone who pay 26000 USD for type rating.

Yes, Regionals do need to fill the class. Everyone in my class can memorize the immediate action items, QRH usage, limitations...etc. However, when something hit the fan, you need to draw from your previous flying experiences to solve the problem you have. From what I gather so far, line CA are worry about the class I am in. Check airmen have warn about this in upgrade class - "Be ready to be flight instructor again."

For the people who want to do some RJ courses, please save your money. Company will teach you how they want you to fly the plane. The best example, my training partner, previous work at another regional airline for few months. She has to re-learn some stuffs for this airlines. Therefore, save your money.

Just my 0.02

Now, back to to study :insane:

Did I miss an announcement? What regional are you at?

 

[DE727UPS]

"From what I gather so far, line CA are worry about the class I am in. Check airmen have warn about this in upgrade class - "Be ready to be flight instructor again."

Something tells me this is the wave of the future...