UUUUUGHHHHHH today was a huge mess

[Southgater]

Wow. Jeremiah Anderson is awesome. He was my old instructors lead. He just called me saying that he found me a new flight instructor. My new instructor is actually crazy enough from my small suberb that I lived in, in washington. I had his younger brother in a couple classes of mine. Small world.

I should be getting going again. Now I just have to hope that I wont have to do a billon review flights.

Please do yourself and others a favor by not naming names. UND is small community and it wouldnt be too difficult to figure out who this instructor is. We do a very good job here at UND of trying to keep things internal, and for the most part anonymous. The material that you are posting is of an opinionated nature. If the wrong person read this material it could lead to actions that none of want to occur. I know you are fairly new to the industry in general and probably dont understand what you are actually doing. Someday you will realize that certain things that happen on the flight line or in an aircraft are best dealt with between the parties involved, and divulging all this information on a public forum that anyone can view is neither intelligent or resposible. Think about yourself five years from now when you begin to instruct and ask yourself if you would feel that it was appropriate for YOUR student to come on a public forum and bash your decision making, and question your abilities to carry on the duties that are required of you. You do raise some valid concerns however these are issues that NEED to be discussed with the appropriate parties involved, not a public forum. Dont take this wrong, but heed the advice of someone who has been around the block quite a few more times than you.

 

[Farva]

:yeahthat: ...well said

-Farva

 

[ZUKO]

While I do agree with some of what you are saying, how is this any different from looking and posting about professors at ratemyprofessors.com before taking a class? I was careful not to mention the person I had the problem with to respect his privacy. And I disagree with you that it would be fairly easy to figure out who my instructor is just by praising his lead for going the extra mile with me. If I realized that the identity of the instructor would have been revealed, due to me posting anything that I did, I would not have continued because it would have been of poor taste.

I posted what went on in a public forum to get other people familiar with the system to help base my opinion. I got suggestions and other viewpoints that helped me. Please remember that I am the customer. If I am not satisfied with the service I am getting, it is the right of the customer to seek out advice, public or not. As a CFI you are still providing a service and are not immune to word of mouth. Many times on this very forum other people will ask for opinions of "ABCD" flight instructor before they select him. Once again, how is this any different? My intentions on this message board have never been to bash anyone but to exchange information and opinions for the greater purpose of my learning.

I plan on becoming a CFI a lot sooner then in five years and this whole experience has been a huge learning experience too me. So once again, I appreciate the advice. I would not want this experience to come around and hurt me in the future. I am extremely passionate about my training, and a lot of emotions were going through myself when the original post was made. I have apologized to all parties involved and have moved on.

Due to the language of your post, I would not be shocked at all if you were my former instructor.

 

[ZUKO]

With all that said, looking back on the situation, I regret handling it the way I did. A lot of emotions and frustration had built up over the semester. The communication was poor and my old instructor flat out didn’t have time for me. My mistake was that I let the frustration build up to a point where I was unable to be calm when I voiced my opinion to the appropriate outlets. I should have blown the red flag a while ago before it got out of hand. You live and learn and in the instance I will be in this situation any other time in my training or even on the other side of the fence, I will go about it differently.

 

[ChadW346]

Well, keep in mind that there is always a good possibility that you could be working alongside this former instructor a few years down the road, so you just want to be careful. The same may not be true for other teachers, professors, etc.

 

[Southgater]

While I do agree with some of what you are saying, how is this any different from looking and posting about professors at ratemyprofessors.com before taking a class? I was careful not to mention the person I had the problem with to respect his privacy. And I disagree with you that it would be fairly easy to figure out who my instructor is just by praising his lead for going the extra mile with me. If I realized that the identity of the instructor would have been revealed, due to me posting anything that I did, I would not have continued because it would have been of poor taste.

I posted what went on in a public forum to get other people familiar with the system to help base my opinion. I got suggestions and other viewpoints that helped me. Please remember that I am the customer. If I am not satisfied with the service I am getting, it is the right of the customer to seek out advice, public or not. As a CFI you are still providing a service and are not immune to word of mouth. Many times on this very forum other people will ask for opinions of "ABCD" flight instructor before they select him. Once again, how is this any different? My intentions on this message board have never been to bash anyone but to exchange information and opinions for the greater purpose of my learning.

I plan on becoming a CFI a lot sooner then in five years and this whole experience has been a huge learning experience too me. So once again, I appreciate the advice. I would not want this experience to come around and hurt me in the future. I am extremely passionate about my training, and a lot of emotions were going through myself when the original post was made. I have apologized to all parties involved and have moved on.

Due to the language of your post, I would not be shocked at all if you were my former instructor.

Okay so first of all I am NOT your former instructor, however I am a FELLOW instructor. While you make the point that an instructor should not be immune from word of mouth, it is irresponsible of you to air the details of any incident, accident, or occurance to a public forum. Those issues are to be dealt with between the parties involved (Flight school, FAA, administration, etc.). You came to a public forum and divulged your opinion of the matter which is not of public record. UND has not come out and published any information about the incident, and that is not your place to do so. You said you took careful steps to keep your instructor anonymous, but the information you wrote is much to the contrary. You posted on this forum the date and tail number of the aircraft that was involved in the incident. Figuring out the time would not be too difficult since it was the last time that that particular aircraft was launched that day. It would have been written up in a maintenance discrepency and signed off by an AP. All I would have to do is look at the aircraft book on that particular date for the last launch of that day, upon which the instructor ID as well as your ID number would be located. See how easy that was. Also when seeking opinions from others giving accounts of the situations would be acceptable, however placing blame and citing your particular opinion on the decision making skills of another are not appropriate. You are not at the experience level to pass that kind of judgement. You have a lot to learn about this industry and while you were correct in questioning the particular CFI on the safety of continuing the flight, your subsequent airing of confidential information on a public forum would effectively end your career in the airline industry if you were to repeat the same actions at that level. I truly hope that you have learned from this experience as you say, but if you allow this to affect the way you act with CFI's in the future I can say with sufficient confidence that you will be a very difficult student to deal with in the future, which could negatively the chances of you ever functioning efficiently in this industry.
Take this from someone who has seen this type of attitude come across my desk in the past.

 

[Malko]

..... You said you took careful steps to keep your instructor anonymous, but the information you wrote is much to the contrary. You posted on this forum the date and tail number of the aircraft that was involved in the incident. Figuring out the time would not be too difficult since it was the last time that that particular aircraft was launched that day. It would have been written up in a maintenance discrepency and signed off by an AP. All I would have to do is look at the aircraft book on that particular date for the last launch of that day, upon which the instructor ID as well as your ID number would be located. .....

Get over yourself. The kid was frustrated and should not think he did anything wrong on this forum. While it is a public forum, the only people that would have access to the information which you state is so easily available would be the people at UND.

I doubt very much that you as a CFI at UND would not find out about it anyway. If you did not find out and the only way you could get the information was to do as you stated above, then I would say that you are the person who is wrong.

It sounds to me like this information is available on a Need to Know basis and you didn't Need to Know.

 

[Southgater]

Get over yourself. The kid was frustrated and should not think he did anything wrong on this forum. While it is a public forum, the only people that would have access to the information which you state is so easily available would be the people at UND.

I doubt very much that you as a CFI at UND would not find out about it anyway. If you did not find out and the only way you could get the information was to do as you stated above, then I would say that you are the person who is wrong.

It sounds to me like this information is available on a Need to Know basis and you didn't Need to Know.

You are missing the point of this post. There are many students on this forum who dont need to know who this particula instructor is. So he was frustrated, does that give him the right to post whatever kind of information he wants, no it doesnt. It is smearing a very good flight program and allowing people to develope unfounded opinions based on subjective facts. Professional courtesy is what it boils down to. I assume then you think it would be okay if you screwed up somewhere down the road and the person flying with posted the info on a forum that your fellow pilots could read. I doubt you would appreciate that.

 

[ZUKO]

First of all. I appreciate what you are saying. I need to know when I post something inappropriate.

Edit: Thank you Jep. The thing that I feel he is forgetting is that I am the customer. I am not held to the same expectations as someone who works at UND. I have signed nothing and I do not represent UND aerospace like a CFI does. I lost my temper, I could of been more professional but my posts regarding my old instructor still stand.

Legally, I am a student of UND aerospace and not an employee. While it may be considered irresponsible of me to air details of what happened on a public forum, it is my right as a customer. If I were an employee of UND/CFI the story would be different. UND Aerospace and its instructors have to protect me because I am the customer. I do not necessary feel that goes both ways. Are you saying that I am not legally allowed to share information that is not public record when I am involved in what happened? You are right to say that I did not realize the consequences of posting the tail number and day it happened.

Up to this point, I had no problem getting along with my instructor or any instructor for that matter. I had strong opinions about the communication of my instructor and his availability but I kept it between myself and my family. My instructor emailed me calling me the most motivated student he has ever seen. If I had an attitude problem, he would not have praised me in emails. I currently have a new instructor and there have been no problems. He has called me exactly when he has told me he was going to call and he has tons of availability.

I would never post information that would jeopardize my job. I should have made the same post with out giving information regarding tail number, instructors lead or specific time. I also should have not lost my cool and gotten into a heated discussion with my instructor. I should have stated my displeasure with what was going on earlier before it got out of hand.

I would never be dumb enough to air confidential information of any employer. Rest assured that I have learned a valuable lesson about how to conduct myself more professionally and to be more cautious about posting specific material.

Okay so first of all I am NOT your former instructor, however I am a FELLOW instructor. While you make the point that an instructor should not be immune from word of mouth, it is irresponsible of you to air the details of any incident, accident, or occurance to a public forum. Those issues are to be dealt with between the parties involved (Flight school, FAA, administration, etc.). You came to a public forum and divulged your opinion of the matter which is not of public record. UND has not come out and published any information about the incident, and that is not your place to do so. You said you took careful steps to keep your instructor anonymous, but the information you wrote is much to the contrary. You posted on this forum the date and tail number of the aircraft that was involved in the incident. Figuring out the time would not be too difficult since it was the last time that that particular aircraft was launched that day. It would have been written up in a maintenance discrepency and signed off by an AP. All I would have to do is look at the aircraft book on that particular date for the last launch of that day, upon which the instructor ID as well as your ID number would be located. See how easy that was. Also when seeking opinions from others giving accounts of the situations would be acceptable, however placing blame and citing your particular opinion on the decision making skills of another are not appropriate. You are not at the experience level to pass that kind of judgement. You have a lot to learn about this industry and while you were correct in questioning the particular CFI on the safety of continuing the flight, your subsequent airing of confidential information on a public forum would effectively end your career in the airline industry if you were to repeat the same actions at that level. I truly hope that you have learned from this experience as you say, but if you allow this to affect the way you act with CFI's in the future I can say with sufficient confidence that you will be a very difficult student to deal with in the future, which could negatively the chances of you ever functioning efficiently in this industry.
Take this from someone who has seen this type of attitude come across my desk in the past.

 

[JaceTheAce]

It is smearing a very good flight program and allowing people to develope unfounded opinions based on subjective facts.

How is this any different from a disgruntled customer of XYZ Restaurant posting a bad restaurant review and telling the entire public about their horrible experience on ABC message board?

UND Aerospace is offering a service and if it is perceived by the customer to be a poor service, why would it be wrong for that customer to discuss their concerns on a public forum? Why should you be the one to say that only positive things should be posted about UND Aerospace as to not degrade their image?

Maybe naming names is going too far (in the days of Google name searching), but naming a company name such as UND Aerospace won't hurt anyone's feelings.

 

[Tommay85]

You've done nothing in the wrong in discussing your situation on here. You are not bound in anyway to only say good things about UND on a public forum. Now, if you posted something about how you were out messing around or something, that would be inappropriate.

Good or bad though, I'd keep specific names restricted to private messages only. That's my only concern with what you've said in this particular thread.

 

[ZUKO]

Why shouldnt students know about this particular incident? They do not need to know the particular CFIs name and information. How ever, they should know to look out for the hazardous positioning of the orange cones.

UND Aerospace does a good job getting people that are naive to the other flight training options by its self. I am allowed to state how I feel about this school. And how it is just another academy trying to get you to believe that the only way you can get hired by an airline is by going through there program. While the education here is top notch, the frequency of your flights is by far too small in my opinion. The majority of the people who attend UND Aerospace were not aware of all the options available before attending. Myself included.

You are missing the point of this post. There are many students on this forum who dont need to know who this particula instructor is. So he was frustrated, does that give him the right to post whatever kind of information he wants, no it doesnt. It is smearing a very good flight program and allowing people to develope unfounded opinions based on subjective facts. Professional courtesy is what it boils down to. I assume then you think it would be okay if you screwed up somewhere down the road and the person flying with posted the info on a forum that your fellow pilots could read. I doubt you would appreciate that.

 

[ZUKO]

I agree completely with this. The only reason I mentioned my instructors lead name was because it was praise. My instructors lead has been flat out awesome. He called me with a new instructor in a timely fashion. He emailed me a week later to see how things were going. And he has been the only person that I have dealt with so far at UND Aerospace that knows a thing about customer service.

You've done nothing in the wrong in discussing your situation on here. You are not bound in anyway to only say good things about UND on a public forum. Now, if you posted something about how you were out messing around or something, that would be inappropriate.

Good or bad though, I'd keep specific names restricted to private messages only. That's my only concern with what you've said in this particular thread.

 

[JaceTheAce]

You've done nothing in the wrong in discussing your situation on here. You are not bound in anyway to only say good things about UND on a public forum. Now, if you posted something about how you were out messing around or something, that would be inappropriate.

Good or bad though, I'd keep specific names restricted to private messages only. That's my only concern with what you've said in this particular thread.

:yeahthat:....exactly what I'd say.

 

[Tommay85]

And he has been the only person that I have dealt with so far at UND Aerospace that knows a thing about customer service.

I'll agree with you about that as well. The leads seem to be the only ones left that know this whole concept called customer service. It didn't used to be like that. There is definitly a different atmosphere out at the airport now compared to when I was a freshman. I'm not saying ALL instructors are like that, but a majority are becoming like that more and more every semester I'm noticing. I think some have this misconception that it is hard to get hired to flight instruct at UND and when you do get hired, you're god's gift to flight instructing.

 

[Malko]

You are missing the point of this post. There are many students on this forum who dont need to know who this particula instructor is. So he was frustrated, does that give him the right to post whatever kind of information he wants, no it doesnt. It is smearing a very good flight program and allowing people to develope unfounded opinions based on subjective facts. Professional courtesy is what it boils down to. I assume then you think it would be okay if you screwed up somewhere down the road and the person flying with posted the info on a forum that your fellow pilots could read. I doubt you would appreciate that.

Why shouldn't these students know? It's not smearing the program. It is talking about what happened with instructor Jones. Your name isn't Jones is it?

IF Dazzler came on here and said, JEP screwed up and hit a cone, light, whatever. I would have no problem with it. I am not going to hide from my mistakes. If anything happened I would have no problems sharing it with others here on this forum in the hopes that some people may learn from it.

Unless I missed something this student came on here and posted his view of what happened. I did not see where he posted the name of the CFI. If he posted the tail number and somebody at UND (seeing as how they are the only ones privy to it) came on here and divluged the names, etc...then they are the ones that have the problem.

I don't know how accessible the information is, but I do know that I cannot go and look at the maintenance logs. He did not out anyone. As for the students at UND knowing, they have every right to know who his instructor was. If there are instructors there that have any questionable traits, I (as a student) would have every right to know. They are paying good money and should have any information available to them.

Now if someone was to say CFI Jones did this, this, and that when in reality he didn't then yes, the student would be wrong.

If one makes a mistake, own up to it. Don't try and hide behind your CFI desk.

 

[Malko]

Please do yourself and others a favor by not naming names. UND is small community and it wouldnt be too difficult to figure out who this instructor is. We do a very good job here at UND of trying to keep things internal, and for the most part anonymous. The material that you are posting is of an opinionated nature. If the wrong person read this material it could lead to actions that none of want to occur. I know you are fairly new to the industry in general and probably dont understand what you are actually doing. Someday you will realize that certain things that happen on the flight line or in an aircraft are best dealt with between the parties involved, and divulging all this information on a public forum that anyone can view is neither intelligent or resposible. Think about yourself five years from now when you begin to instruct and ask yourself if you would feel that it was appropriate for YOUR student to come on a public forum and bash your decision making, and question your abilities to carry on the duties that are required of you. You do raise some valid concerns however these are issues that NEED to be discussed with the appropriate parties involved, not a public forum. Dont take this wrong, but heed the advice of someone who has been around the block quite a few more times than you.

Psst...

Next time around the block, stop by the house of Jace and AngelFuree. They are passing out lessons on punctuation and spelling.

 

[venezuelana]

Psst...

Next time around the block, stop by the house of Jace and AngelFuree. They are passing out lessons on punctuation and spelling.

:yeahthat: I love they're....whoops....I mean their lessons and I would be happy to be of assistance in such matters as well!:rotfl:

 

[Farva]

First of all. I appreciate what you are saying. I need to know when I post something inappropriate.

Edit: Thank you Jep. The thing that I feel he is forgetting is that I am the customer. I am not held to the same expectations as someone who works at UND. I have signed nothing and I do not represent UND aerospace like a CFI does. I lost my temper, I could of been more professional but my posts regarding my old instructor still stand.

Legally, I am a student of UND aerospace and not an employee. While it may be considered irresponsible of me to air details of what happened on a public forum, it is my right as a customer. If I were an employee of UND/CFI the story would be different. UND Aerospace and its instructors have to protect me because I am the customer. I do not necessary feel that goes both ways. Are you saying that I am not legally allowed to share information that is not public record when I am involved in what happened? You are right to say that I did not realize the consequences of posting the tail number and day it happened.

Up to this point, I had no problem getting along with my instructor or any instructor for that matter. I had strong opinions about the communication of my instructor and his availability but I kept it between myself and my family. My instructor emailed me calling me the most motivated student he has ever seen. If I had an attitude problem, he would not have praised me in emails. I currently have a new instructor and there have been no problems. He has called me exactly when he has told me he was going to call and he has tons of availability.

I would never post information that would jeopardize my job. I should have made the same post with out giving information regarding tail number, instructors lead or specific time. I also should have not lost my cool and gotten into a heated discussion with my instructor. I should have stated my displeasure with what was going on earlier before it got out of hand.

I would never be dumb enough to air confidential information of any employer. Rest assured that I have learned a valuable lesson about how to conduct myself more professionally and to be more cautious about posting specific material.

well you may have a point that you are a student and are not bounded to be in total support of the school, you are giving out alot of information in which I and most anybody at UND could find out. The instructor may have made a mistake, he is not perfect and is human so get over it. What southgater is saying is true, this industry and community here at UND and anywhere is very small and when you bad mouth about your flight school, company, or airline for which you fly for they will give you a pink slip. The union cant protect you and niether will your fellow pilots because you were running your mouth about how some guy made a mistake or how this place you are at ,sucks. The industry is not fair and only those who dont complain and dont disrespect there fellow pilots get ahead while those who complain, faulter and quit the bussiness after a few years because they cant take it. Now if it is a major safety issue and what not then thats a different story but that is kept between the parties invovled such as the flight crew and the company, or even the FAA if it concerns them, not on a open public forum. As far the customer stuff, you may be the customer but when you do not have a fair playing ground in which to say you had a bad experience here at UND. You did not pass your block exams and got put on flight hold till you did better than a 76%. Your instructor wasnt making any money and had to do other things, so you got pushed back as far as priority goes. Also did you stay up over the break and finish the flying? the weather during the break was mostly sunny skies almost every day and well pretty warm. I would say that you brought on some of your own problems and you just gotta deal with them. I understand that your personal life is very important and you have a gf back in washington but that is the price you pay to fly for the rest of your life. being a pilot means your social life is very hard to keep up with. The diovorce rate for pilots is in the 80% range and its there for a reason, you are not home at all. So take what southgater is saying as experience and trying to point you into the right direction. If you want to follow what JEP and angel are saying go ahead but who are you gonna trust a guy in the business or somebody trying to enter the business?

-Farva

 

[ZUKO]

I would appreciate it if we can let this thread die.

How could I have stayed over break? Housing was not an option. I have no one to stay with. I am from Seattle. I would of had to pay a hotel 100 or so a night to stay. I would have considered that if I was close to finishing. I have always taken full responsible for my block exams. How ever, I feel like there is a huge flaw in the way UND assigns students to instructors regardless of how many old students they have to finish. It is crazy for my instructor to have 9 students under his belt.

My main complaints are not about me being so far behind but because of the huge flaw I mentioned above, lack of customer service from everyone but said lead instructor, and this specific incident. UND does not treat there students as customers. The emphasis of UND has gotten away from flying and I feel the school is over structured.

I made a mistake. This thread should not have been of such a rant nature. I should of described what happened roughly and got the opinion based off of that. I should not have mentioned tail numbers or the lead instructor. I have been open and honest to my ground school performance and a lot of being this far behind has been brought upon myself. I have learned that I do not like the way UND is structured. There are too many breaks between flying because of the semester schedule. Once you finish your semesters flying, then you are done flying till the next semester.

What’s done is done and I have learned a pretty good lesson. It is not so black and white Farva. I agree with some of what Jep and others have posted while I agree with what some of Farva and Southgater have posted. I am somewhat in between both sides. Can we finally just let this thread die? I have admitted my faults, apologized to the parties involved for loosing my cool and have learned from this. Let’s move on and get this thread in the archives. Nothing to see here.

well you may have a point that you are a student and are not bounded to be in total support of the school, you are giving out alot of information in which I and most anybody at UND could find out. The instructor may have made a mistake, he is not perfect and is human so get over it. What southgater is saying is true, this industry and community here at UND and anywhere is very small and when you bad mouth about your flight school, company, or airline for which you fly for they will give you a pink slip. The union cant protect you and niether will your fellow pilots because you were running your mouth about how some guy made a mistake or how this place you are at ,sucks. The industry is not fair and only those who dont complain and dont disrespect there fellow pilots get ahead while those who complain, faulter and quit the bussiness after a few years because they cant take it. Now if it is a major safety issue and what not then thats a different story but that is kept between the parties invovled such as the flight crew and the company, or even the FAA if it concerns them, not on a open public forum. As far the customer stuff, you may be the customer but when you do not have a fair playing ground in which to say you had a bad experience here at UND. You did not pass your block exams and got put on flight hold till you did better than a 76%. Your instructor wasnt making any money and had to do other things, so you got pushed back as far as priority goes. Also did you stay up over the break and finish the flying? the weather during the break was mostly sunny skies almost every day and well pretty warm. I would say that you brought on some of your own problems and you just gotta deal with them. I understand that your personal life is very important and you have a gf back in washington but that is the price you pay to fly for the rest of your life. being a pilot means your social life is very hard to keep up with. The diovorce rate for pilots is in the 80% range and its there for a reason, you are not home at all. So take what southgater is saying as experience and trying to point you into the right direction. If you want to follow what JEP and angel are saying go ahead but who are you gonna trust a guy in the business or somebody trying to enter the business?

-Farva