2004 v. 2006 for pilots

meritflyer said:
... Lou Dobbs "Attack on the Middle Class"

Pay is down, yet consumer spending is at a record high?

Must be those damn rich CEOs!
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Not debating, just making a point.
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Consumer debt is also at an all time high.

That is all I have to say, keep charging up them credit cards.
 
meritflyer said:
Pay is down, yet consumer spending is at a record high?

Must be those damn rich CEOs!
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Not debating, just making a point.
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It was lost on me. Can you clarify? Are you saying just because consumer spending is up, you don't believe the middle class is getting squeezed?

What exactly is figured into consumer spending?
 
wheelsup said:
It was lost on me. Can you clarify? Are you saying just because consumer spending is up, you don't believe the middle class is getting squeezed?

What exactly is figured into consumer spending?
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I just typed this huge response dealing with induced and autonomous consumption supported by aggregate and effective demand. I then proceeded to hit the "back" button on my browser and lost it all.

So in a nutshell, induced consumption is at an all time high. Induced consumption is the measurement of financial expenses and their relation to (utilization of household goods and services. This concept is income sensitive (it varies with income). By using this concept as an index, economists have it at an all time high, adjusted for inflation. This theory yields a constant. So, one could argue that the rich are getting more rich and the poor are getting more poort. Those are opinions without getting into more economic equation and theory.

To answer your question, I'll tell you why it measures economic health. CS makes up about 2/3 of the US GDP therefore being the most accurate measure of economic stability and growth.

Think of consumer spending as spending money with ease or difficulty. Retail sales, up or down? Home sales, up or down? Auto, this, that...

Either way, econo-political ideology will twist and turn this or that to produce a desired outcome. But by measure of the Federal Reserve, its at an all time peak.

Cool... ;)
 
wheelsup said:
That's a bit insensitive, isn't it? Look at those numbers, everyone except Delta is actually second round cuts if I remember correctly - IOW there were actually larger cuts taken.

Of course it's not what you make, it's what you keep - but when you go from making $250,000+/yr to making $70,000 - 150,000 you're gonna feel a pinch, unless you are a miser and live under a rock and stockpile your money. Are you seriously suggesting it is these folks' fault for being financially irresponsible for losing their homes after taking a $50,000 - $170,000/yr pay cut (after taking pay cuts and getting knocked back to the right seat)?
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According to the book "who wants to be a millionaire", yup, they are financially irresponsible. If you make that kind of money year after after year you should have enough saved that if your income suddenly STOPPED you can continue to live your same lifestyle for a couple years. Now that is easier said then done in the days of credit cards, commercialism (think huge HD flat screen TVs) 80k cars with rims and sound systems, it goes on and on. I read that book and thought it was a great idea, but i probably would have forgot about it if Im making 250k and walked into Best Buy or a mercedes dealership. Heck, I excited I just got approved for an American Express Blue card. (For some reason I think American Express is a prestigious card) So if I was one of those pilots taking a cut, I probably would have been one of the ones saying oh oh:insane: Hopefully my spending ways will slowdown as I get older.

MQAAord said:
The paycuts are far from temporary. We won't see anything resembling those old rates for many, many years.
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Flying magazine says airline pilot jobs overseas are at the same prestige and pay as the US had pre-9-11. Emirates and Cathy Pacific comes to mind when I think of this. I heard getting a job a Cathy is like winning the lottery though.

Overall, I think the cuts are just a result of 9-11 and high gas prices. I think if 9-11 never happened we wouldn't be here having this discussion. While many say we will never see the same rates again I disagree, I think eventually the industry will get back up, and with that the pilot salary will increase again. If it doesnt theres always China lol.
 
Ehh, hold on there folks. Some of you in this thread are (were) the same ones that wanted to argue about the "good" aspects of Gulfstream, thought regionals reducing minimums to fly larger and larger aircraft instead of increasing benefits to attract pilots and "after all, you ARE overpaid". Oh, and the evils of unions.

Don't make me break out the Google! :)

What did you guys expect?
 
Doug Taylor said:
Ehh, hold on there folks. Some of you in this thread are (were) the same ones that wanted to argue about the "good" aspects of Gulfstream, thought regionals reducing minimums to fly larger and larger aircraft instead of increasing benefits to attract pilots and "after all, you ARE overpaid". Oh, and the evils of unions.

Don't make me break out the Google! :)

What did you guys expect?
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Not overpaid, but paid highly. Higher than the average American.
 
Flying's not the average job. When the average job has a potentially career-ending medical twice per year, recurrent training every six to twelve months and is responsible for anywhere from 19 to 400 passengers several times per day, the comparison may be valid.

Flying aircraft isn't selling universal life insurance.
 
Champcar said:
Then why the complaining?
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Doug Taylor said:
Flying's not the average job. When the average job has a potentially career-ending medical twice per year, recurrent training every six to twelve months and is responsible for anywhere from 19 to 400 passengers several times per day, the comparison may be valid.

Flying aircraft isn't selling universal life insurance.
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:yeahthat:
 
Hi.

Welcome to a career aviation website.

Some people are wondering why where the profession is today.

I presented why I *think* the profession where it is today, but left out the part about people voting themselves concessions for 'career insurance' during a time of upheaval in the industry.

Other than that, there's no way on earth you can, from the outside of the industry, try to run a comparison of how the average American worker receives in compensation to what pilots earn.

It's very easy to judge what you think I do, and what I actually do when you really haven't actually done it.

If I stepped on your toes, I'm very sorry, but I'm just trying to be as frank as possible for your benefit! :)
 
Champcar said:
Then why the complaining?
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It's pretty simple. Just look at the original post. When any job has a decrease by that much, you are going to here complaining, no matter what you do or how much you make.

Now how much should pilots make is up for debate, but keep in mind that the majority of people who call pilots overpaid are the ones who know the least amount of what they actually do or go through.
 
Oh Lordy. So Champcar thinks 35K a year is better than average and we should quit complaining. I have to assume he'll be happy never making more than that in today's dollars when he gets on at a major in 15 years.

I'm kinda wondering why this race to the bottom didn't start sooner...
 
Percentages are nice but I think to really see the impact it's best to use real numbers. On average Delta pilots have had $80,000 a year taken out of their paychecks. For total of $550 million worth of give backs. And what does the traveling public get for the sacrifice from pilots, about $5 dollars off their ticket. And what does the company get at the expense of the pilots about $1000 shavings on each flight. Having said that I have often argued with friends that the givebacks end up costing companies money. I have two questions for the professional pilots who have had to take pay cuts on the board.

1. Would you say the pay cuts have affected morale so negatively that it has interfered with efficiency?
2. If you had to put a price on that loss of efficiency roughly what would it be?
 
Wow those numbers suck. It’s that simple. Hard numbers don't lie .I guess you still have to take the QOL, retirement, company policies, ect. The guy making more money might not be the happiest
 
meritflyer said:
I took this from another thread to expand on it from a numerical standpoint.

Delta
In 2004 a second year FO on the 757/767 made $131/hr
In 2006 a second year FO on the 757/767 made $76/hr
A 48% pay cut.


How did this happen? This would've (did) ruined lives.

Source: Airline Pilot Central
All numbers were based on a 24 month period (May 2004-May 2006)
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My 2004 W2 shows I earned $148K. My 2006 W2 will show $92K. That's about a 62% paycut. It didn't ruin my life because my annual expenses are $32K.

Spending less than you earn has always worked real well for me and I highly recommend it.
 
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