I don't suck up... what to do

gomntwins

gomntwins

Well-Known Member
I was having a conversation with a friend of mine last night about flying. He's a pilot and I'm a pilot. He's a 121 regional pilot... I'm 135 cargo. Neither of us feel like we're at our final job, so we started talking about where we actually want to end up, and the thought of being a corporate pilot came up. I don't know if I could do it. My problem: I'm very anti-authority, anti-management, etc. I've always been the free spirit type (and an only child on top of that). Back in college if I wanted to go to Europe, I bought a ticket and was there the next day. If I wanted to go on a roadtrip I was on the road a half hour later. As I got older I finally realized that I actually needed to make money... so I started flying. I can't do whatever on a whim anymore... that's fine... but I took a job where I don't deal with management (it fits my personality well). I'm at an outstation. I have my route, I fly it, and I don't deal with anybody. I'm reliable, I'm a hardworker, I do what's asked of me without complaining... everybody's happy.

The issue: I don't really know where to go from here. I'd actually be ok doing the freight thing, but the pay isn't going to be enough. I'm 26 and will top out in pay by the time I hit 27. Good pay for being 27... not good pay for retirement though. If I ended up in the wrong corporate position and my boss told me to go pick up the dry cleaning or wash his car I'd probably tell her/him a few choice words. My personality would not fit into a pilot/personal assistant position. I don't suck up. Pure and simple. Would my anti-authority anti-managment personality work well with an airline? I used to think so... but I'm not sure anymore. Maybe a fractional? I don't know. Anybody have any good ideas? If 135 freight's what I'd be happiest doing, I'll stick here... but I'd like to think there's something higher on the ladder that I'd do well with. I realize I'm not going anywhere for awhile... at least a couple years (starting Metro training on Monday, so I plan on getting at least 1000 turbine PIC before the next step)... but I feel goal-less at the moment... something I don't like to be.

Just for the record, my anti-authority attitude doesn't go into the cockpit. I do what ATC asks, I follow the rules, and I'm very by the book in an airplane. I always seem to drop my attitude at the door... I've always taken flying very seriously. I like advice from pilots... I think a crew setting I'd do well with... my big issue is with the non-flying aspects of a flying job.
 
Twins, I hear ya bro. I don't work or play well with others either. Generally, I don't like people. Specifically, I dislike people who tell me what and when to do-- whatever. I am, by far, happiest when I am left alone to do my work in peace and solitude. But ya know what? I can't do that. I have a captain. I have a flight attendant. I have a chief pilot. I have a scheduling department. I have to interact with ground personnel, snotty mainline FA's and gate agents, and a myriad of other people just to get the plane and it's occupants from one place to another and back again, up to five times a day. It is, quite often, infuriating. But I do it anyway.

Everyone who knows me says, "What? Jim, that's bullhonkey. You're one of the most outgoing, personable, easy-going dudes I know. Whaddaya mean you don't like people?" It's all show. It's a process whereby I can get the job done as efficiently as possible. It's part of the job; a skill, a work ability. I'm not saying you have to be a faker like me, and you certainly shouldn't suck up. But the plain and simple fact is, if you want to get ahead, you're going to need to learn some soft-skills. You can be direct, firm, and honest with your superiors; they will respect you more anyway. But you can also smile and be friendly with passengers and other work groups. It's not sucking-up. It's interacting with people. I know, I don't really like it either, but it's a damn valuable skill, and if you get good at it you might find that you grow more as a person anyway. Hell, sometimes I actually feel like smiling at the people that I have to deal with from day to day. Some of them are O.K.!

*disclaimer*
If you know me personally, and we are friends, I'm real with you. If I'm smiling, I'm happy. If I'm scowling, I'm pissed. If I look vacant, I'm probably drunk. Friends get me. Everyone else gets my representative.
 
gomntwins said:
I was having a conversation with a friend of mine last night about flying. He's a pilot and I'm a pilot. He's a 121 regional pilot... I'm 135 cargo. Neither of us feel like we're at our final job, so we started talking about where we actually want to end up, and the thought of being a corporate pilot came up. I don't know if I could do it. My problem: I'm very anti-authority, anti-management, etc. I've always been the free spirit type (and an only child on top of that). Back in college if I wanted to go to Europe, I bought a ticket and was there the next day. If I wanted to go on a roadtrip I was on the road a half hour later. As I got older I finally realized that I actually needed to make money... so I started flying. I can't do whatever on a whim anymore... that's fine... but I took a job where I don't deal with management (it fits my personality well). I'm at an outstation. I have my route, I fly it, and I don't deal with anybody. I'm reliable, I'm a hardworker, I do what's asked of me without complaining... everybody's happy.

The issue: I don't really know where to go from here. I'd actually be ok doing the freight thing, but the pay isn't going to be enough. I'm 26 and will top out in pay by the time I hit 27. Good pay for being 27... not good pay for retirement though. If I ended up in the wrong corporate position and my boss told me to go pick up the dry cleaning or wash his car I'd probably tell her/him a few choice words. My personality would not fit into a pilot/personal assistant position. I don't suck up. Pure and simple. Would my anti-authority anti-managment personality work well with an airline? I used to think so... but I'm not sure anymore. Maybe a fractional? I don't know. Anybody have any good ideas? If 135 freight's what I'd be happiest doing, I'll stick here... but I'd like to think there's something higher on the ladder that I'd do well with. I realize I'm not going anywhere for awhile... at least a couple years (starting Metro training on Monday, so I plan on getting at least 1000 turbine PIC before the next step)... but I feel goal-less at the moment... something I don't like to be.

Just for the record, my anti-authority attitude doesn't go into the cockpit. I do what ATC asks, I follow the rules, and I'm very by the book in an airplane. I always seem to drop my attitude at the door... I've always taken flying very seriously. I like advice from pilots... I think a crew setting I'd do well with... my big issue is with the non-flying aspects of a flying job.
Click to expand...
In almost any good corporate type job, you will not end up washing the bosses car or running errands. Probably the best way to avoid this type of thing, is to talk to people who have worked there before. If you did end up doing this type of thing, it would probably be for someone who just bought an airplane. In that case, it might be your job to spell out exactly what your duties are.

If you end up at a one man show and don't have your own mechanic, you may be doing a lot of work washing and keeping the airplane clean, etc. You will also probably be spending a lot of time on the phone to tech support trying to troubleshoot problems, so the service center doesn't rape you for repairs.
 
If you can't handle a lot of collateral duties that aren't aviation related, don't take a corporate job that has them.

You're not out of the ordinary with your anti-authority attitude. However, I think that you might want to grow out of it here soon . . . lol. Most folks lose them in their late teens and early twenties. I think that your issue might not be so much that you have an abnormal anti-authority attitude, but that you've worked so long to avoid situations where you've had to deal with a "boss". Now, after some time, you're going to have to come face-to-face with that reality that you need to make some choices.

Don't feel alone . . . there was once a young Marine Corps Lance Corporal that had a HUGE problem with doing what he was supposed to . . . until a couple of Corporals and a Sergeant got him behind the motor pool one day. A little wall-to-wall counseling, and I . . . I mean, he . . . was good to go!!:)
 
mtsu_av8er said:
If you can't handle a lot of collateral duties that aren't aviation related, don't take a corporate job that has them.

You're not out of the ordinary with your anti-authority attitude. However, I think that you might want to grow out of it here soon . . . lol. Most folks lose them in their late teens and early twenties. I think that your issue might not be so much that you have an abnormal anti-authority attitude, but that you've worked so long to avoid situations where you've had to deal with a "boss". Now, after some time, you're going to have to come face-to-face with that reality that you need to make some choices.

Don't feel alone . . . there was once a young Marine Corps Lance Corporal that had a HUGE problem with doing what he was supposed to . . . until a couple of Corporals and a Sergeant got him behind the motor pool one day. A little wall-to-wall counseling, and I . . . I mean, he . . . was good to go!!:)
Click to expand...

Nobody in my family grows out of it! A lot of other people do, but from what I've witnessed in my parents and the rest of my family, I really don't know how much it'll change. Nobody takes much BS in my family. I think part of it's the nurture vs. nature argument. Guess I was nurtured to be anti-authority. At least I think I was. The think with my family is they've always found ways around having a boss, or at least one that meddles, and have done well for themselves... so I'm gonna try the same... I think anyways. I grew up in a family with a hippy undertone. I like it. I don't want to change.
 
Good words CapnJim.
I can't stand relying on others, doing what somebody else says, looking happy, carrying out tasks when I know it doesn't fit into the the overall goal, letting people know what is going on, and all that. But to excel I have to do all those things and become a "hang around the water cooler" type of guy.
I dont care what anybody says, those Frank Sinatra "Do It My Way" days are over. Today I only see folks that did it their way maybe 60% of the time.
 
CapnJim said:
Generally, I don't like people. Specifically, I dislike people who tell me what and when to do-- whatever. .
Click to expand...

Will you get me an ice cold Pepsi please?
icon10.gif
 
mtsu_av8er said:
Hmmm . . . then why did you post the question? The answer is clearly simple . . . fly freight at an outstation forever!:sarcasm:
Click to expand...

Maybe... (I realize the sarcasm tag, but the thought has crossed my mind)

There are a few people I work with who seem to be content doing it.

I guess the question I'm posing is not "where's the perfect fit for me?" but more like... "what the closest I can get?"
 
mtsu_av8er said:
If you can't handle a lot of collateral duties that aren't aviation related, don't take a corporate job that has them.

You're not out of the ordinary with your anti-authority attitude. However, I think that you might want to grow out of it here soon . . . lol. Most folks lose them in their late teens and early twenties. I think that your issue might not be so much that you have an abnormal anti-authority attitude, but that you've worked so long to avoid situations where you've had to deal with a "boss". Now, after some time, you're going to have to come face-to-face with that reality that you need to make some choices.

Don't feel alone . . . there was once a young Marine Corps Lance Corporal that had a HUGE problem with doing what he was supposed to . . . until a couple of Corporals and a Sergeant got him behind the motor pool one day. A little wall-to-wall counseling, and I . . . I mean, he . . . was good to go!!:)
Click to expand...



Quitter. You need to watch Cool Hand Luke a few dozen times. He would have got his ass beat and still told the man to shove it. I wonder what Chuck Norris would do? :)
 
well ... Don't ever get married then!
I agree with Lloyd, at some point to some degree you'll grow out of it. It doesn't matter the job or the social situation you gotta be nice to people.

I do not consider myself a suck up and yet I am a very successful corporate pilot. I do however do things to make my boss's life a little easier and more comfortable ... such as offering him a cold drink when I get on board prior to climbing in the seat. I don't see this as subserviant any more than if I offer you a cold drink if you were sitting in my living room, its just treating people decently. One of the biggest advantages of flying corporate over the airlines is the direct involvement with the guy who signs my pay check. I want him to value me as an employee so that he feels good giving me my next raise. You are always going to have someone telling you what to do ... the trick is training them to tell you what you want to do. Develope the gift of tact ... the ability to tell someone to go to he11 in such a way that they look forward to the trip ...

Jim
 
C650CPT said:
well ... Don't ever get married then!
I agree with Lloyd, at some point to some degree you'll grow out of it. It doesn't matter the job or the social situation you gotta be nice to people.

I do not consider myself a suck up and yet I am a very successful corporate pilot. I do however do things to make my boss's life a little easier and more comfortable ... such as offering him a cold drink when I get on board prior to climbing in the seat. I don't see this as subserviant any more than if I offer you a cold drink if you were sitting in my living room, its just treating people decently. One of the biggest advantages of flying corporate over the airlines is the direct involvement with the guy who signs my pay check. I want him to value me as an employee so that he feels good giving me my next raise. You are always going to have someone telling you what to do ... the trick is training them to tell you what you want to do. Develope the gift of tact ... the ability to tell someone to go to he11 in such a way that they look forward to the trip ...

Jim
Click to expand...

Good thoughts. I should say that I'm not a mean person, I treat people well. I'd offer you a drink if you came over. I'm a very helpful person overall. What I don't like, and what I've experienced a lot of lately, is being treated very poorly by a lot of the corporate clientelle at the FBO that I spend a lot of my time. I get confused for line personel on a regular basis because of my dress. I don't like getting yelled at by somebody getting off from their gulfstream for not carrying their bags to the car. I had one individual a few weeks ago screaming at the top of his lungs about how he was going to get me fired because I wasn't being helpful on getting a hotel room for him. I'm at the FBO just trying to do my job... fly my freight. I've seen more corporate pilots getting their a$$'s chewed because the rental car wasn't at the airport (blame the car rental place... not the pilot... car rentals are EXTREMELY disorganized where I live) in the last few weeks then I'd care to count. I've met plenty of individuals who would be wonderful to work for... but if I got in with the wrong person, I don't tend to back down. That's my issue.
 
and in those situations I would totally agree with you ... my personall integrity is very important to me ... I'm no ones whipping post. Corporate jobs are as varied as corporations themselves... corporations have character and how they treat thier employees is defined by that character. I once told a passenger if he was smart he'd wait till I got him home before he pissed me off ... he was quiet the rest of the trip.

Jim
 
gomntwins said:
... I don't tend to back down. That's my issue.
Click to expand...


Your issue is pride.



Here's my advice. Calculate at your current rate of consumption how many years you can continue to burn through Daddy's money. When you get to that point, you can choose to grow up or go hungry.







.
 
Sprint100 said:
Good words CapnJim.
I can't stand relying on others, doing what somebody else says, looking happy, carrying out tasks when I know it doesn't fit into the the overall goal, letting people know what is going on, and all that. But to excel I have to do all those things and become a "hang around the water cooler" type of guy.
I dont care what anybody says, those Frank Sinatra "Do It My Way" days are over. Today I only see folks that did it their way maybe 60% of the time.
Click to expand...

"When keepin it real...goes wrong!"

:D
 
gomntwins said:
... I finally realized that I actually needed to make money... so I started flying.
Click to expand...

Did anybody else get a chuckle out of this line? :)

Anyway, I think that if you want to get into a Corporate gig or pax 135, you'll need to get 'over it' and ramp up your people skills ASAP. It's the most important part of the job. Do you need to deal with ####### passengers sometimes? Yes. That's where plenty of tact is required (same stuff required to sucessfully work in a restaurant, law enforcement, emergency medicine, etc).

You'll be on your own on the road someplace and you'll need to interact with pax (such as reassure and comfort them with a some sincerity, or tactfully tell them things they don't want to hear about weather or maintenance, get them a drink, help them with bags, or whatever), work with line guys and FBO CSRs to make sure a zillion things are ready at the right place and time, arange or fix messed-up catering orders with a catering outfit, arrange or fix messed-up ground transportation, work with mechanics to arrange and sometimes supervise maintenanace work on the road...

...all require good people skills. Some of these folks will be having a good day, and sometimes they will be having the proverbial 'bad hair day.' Gotta deal with whatever you are faced with at the moment. If you can't handle that, maybe this aspect of aviation isn't quite right for you.
 
I think you all need a little more background, especially with some of the remarks. I put myself through college and paid for all of my ratings. I started a lawn mowing business when I was in high school that did very well for itself. I was young and stupid and spent a fair amount of my money on travel until the age of 20. I ran out of money... well, not quite out. I had a choice, school or living... I went with school. I was homeless for two years in college... slept in my car. I started up my mowing after I graduated, paid for my ratings (something I wanted to do), sold my business and started instructing. I was a lot different person before my car experience. I got bitter, and now I'm trying to get over it. Easier said then done. The experience has added to who I am... but not necessarily in a good way. It definitely hurt my people skills. I've been working on it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top