PCL hires 8 of 11 from ATP

[kellwolf]

Did anything other than capping you (by that I mean pilots at peaknuckle) at 037 happen from that, kell?

Operationally, just the cap. They shouldn't have been up there in the first place. Just b/c a book says the plane can do it doesn't mean it can. That's why we have the OTHER performance charts in the QRH to tell us how high we can go and what speed we can maintain for different weights. They're reasoning was "Bombardier said it'll do it, so let's find out." Personally, I don't get paid enought to be a test pilot. That was just one of MANY things those guys did wrong on that flight. There's a bit more awareness of it during initial training, but still not enough focusing on the climb/cruise charts. If you don't know how to determine your minimum airspeed, how are you gonna be able to fly it when ATC tells you to? Same goes if they tell you to slow to a certain speed at altitude. Can you do it? I think there's a lot of FOs out there that just look at the CA in that situation instead of pulling out the chart. I don't think the FAA going after the training dept or the CP would be the right course of action. The guys behind the controls were playing dumb, and there's nothing anyone else could do to change that. Plenty more mistakes were made that flight other than taking it to 410.

 

[ChrisH]

As far the pay thing. I'm not even going to go there. It has nothing to do with being high maintenence. Sure, you can live on 70K a year. Sure, first year FO pay is survivable. 99% of the time nothing is going to happen to make you have to work to protect those 51 people behind you, but for that 1% when something goes wrong you should be making more then a super market check out person.

I don't know any super market checkout person making $70K per year, or even anywhere close to that. Maybe you are referring to a first year FO. I think what 777 is saying, is that upgrading to captain, and making $70-$80K is not bad, especially if you upgrade a few years into your career. And your pay continues to go up, with each year with the airline, after that. Spending a career with a regional is actually not a bad career, and I know a few pilots who have, and will do just that. They are making good money, and have built up seniority that gives them good days off, and a good schedule. They don't want to give it up.

I think one of the reasons the public has no sympathy for pilots, is that they don't understand their arguments. Look at what the majority of the country is making. They aren't typically making more than a regional captain. The average salary for someone who has a college degree, is $70K per year. Astronauts, for that matter, have a pay range that ranges from $40K to $82K. They have to have a degree in physics, engineering, or some kind of science, and usually meet flight experience that is more than what someone applying to the majors needs to have.

 

[kellwolf]

I don't want to spend my career at a regional, and here's why: the rug can be yanked out from under you at any moment. Here someone is, fat dumb and happy with their high seniority $70K 5 year CA pay. Then, mainline decides to give their contract to another regional. Now, they're out on the street due to furloughs (or liquidated in a worse case scenario) and have to start over again as an FO, at the bottom of a seniority list making a fraction of what they were. Now they have to sell the house and the car and scramble to catch back up on those student loan payments that piled up during the years they spent as FOs when they couldn't make the payments.

I agree that most of the country doesn't understand the arguements for pilot pay. However, if Bill has a total lapse of concentration on the phone at his sales job, he loses the client. He doesn't kill himself and 50-300 other people.

 

[killbilly]

However, if Bill has a total lapse of concentration on the phone at his sales job, he loses the client. He doesn't kill himself and 50-300 other people.

Nah, that usually only happens when I accuse my clients of incompetence.

An interesting correllation is that I often WANT to kill the 50-300 other people that I WORK with, but usually they're the causative factor and not the result. :insane:

 

[MikeD]

What entertainment this thread is.

Silly little civilians and the "my regional can beat up your regional argument"

Ahhh, the cutthroat SJS battle to see who can make $20K/yr faster than the other guy. And people will sell themselves to do it!

There really is a sucker born every day.

 

[Trip7]

What entertainment this thread is.

Silly little civilians and the "my regional can beat up your regional argument"

Ahhh, the cutthroat SJS battle to see who can make $20K/yr faster than the other guy. And people will sell themselves to do it!

There really is a sucker born every day.

Na, its the race to see who can make 20k the first year, 30k the second year, upgrade and 60k the third year 70k the fourth year, 80k the fifth year, FEDEX, UPS or SWA the 6th year granted you got the connections, and 50k that probationary year, 80k the second year 90k the third year, 100k or more the fourth year, by this time you should have the loans paid off and living nice pretty good compared to most people not only in the US, but in the world.

 

[jtrain609]

Except for the fact that airlines realize that when you'll work for such low wages flying a 90 seat RJ, why won't you work for the same wages to fly a 737? And then a 757? And then a 747?

The view that you have is shooting us all in the foot.

 

[Trip7]

Except for the fact that airlines realize that when you'll work for such low wages flying a 90 seat RJ, why won't you work for the same wages to fly a 737? And then a 757? And then a 747?

The view that you have is shooting us all in the foot.

Nope, it is not buddy. The view I have is to use the regionals as a stepping stone to the real job, the major airlines. I dont care as much for regional pay as I do airline pay. Im all for improvement of the QOL at the regional level, but its not my priority. If the airline has grown and seen revenues increase, there sure as heck better be a pay increase when the next contract is up. Still the payscales that are currently at the airlines is decent. While there is room for improvement, its not as bad as some of you portray it to be. This is not words coming from a 21 year in instrument training it is coming from my pilots I know at the regional and airline level.
I would not work for the same wages at the major level because the majors is my last stop. Thats what most of us is aiming for! Thats ONE reason why the Majors pay the big bucks and the regionals dont pay nearly as well. Second ly, regionals pilots fly smaller equipment that bring in less revenue than a major airline's planes. My goodness it just hit me how silly that question was. Why would someone keep working for less money than they are capable of receiving? Haha, philosophy major huh?:insane: Anybody else a business major?

 

[DE727UPS]

"I dont really care what the regionals pay"

This attitude is really bad for the piloting career. I pray there are few like you entering the industry. By the way, UPS pilots don't take kindly to people who favor lowering the bar in this business. Where did you say you wanted to work, again?

We all, from CFI's to regionals to majors, need to care about stopping the downward slide in pilot pay.

 

[montanapilot]

Well at least Frank Lorenzo still loves you 777.

 

[ERJ-135]

All I read about is the school bashing, when in real life, it is the airlines that hire the low time marketing hyped pilot. At least the airlines get a product that has a level of training in an RJ sim which a fresh CFI, FBO type does not. The FBO CFI has paid the dues but has a stronger chance of not making it to IOE. Don't you think the regionals know this by now?

 

[MikeD]

. I dont care as much for regional pay as I do airline pay.

So a regional isn't an airline? Hmmm. Kell/Bob etc....were you guys aware of this?

I would not work for the same wages at the major level because the majors is my last stop.

The majors don't care what you personally would or would not work for. They look at numbers. So long as there are stacks of resumes of people willing to work for beans, they will continue to pay low at the regional level. Now, don't think this won't trickle up to the majors level. Pretty soon, as the bar keeps going down from dog-eat-dog pilots all wanting to move up, a savvy CEO akin to JO is going to ask himself "why should I pay my guys tons of $$$ to fly a 737/757 [insert aircraft here] when regional guys are willing to work for beans?....and furthermore, if I slashed wages in order to put more money in my own pocket, will I still have resumes of guys willing to work for regional-style wages at my own airline?" The answer is, YES. The lowering of the bar is going to work its way up to the majors, because CEOs see no difference between a CRJ and a 757....to them, they're both just airliners. They don't see the difference in responsibility, etc, that justifies a pay difference. And guys like you willing to "just get there, no matter what I have to sell myself for", will only fuel this fire. Pretty soon, the majors and the regionals will be one and the same, on the low side.

Like I said, Grinstein/Lorenzo/Ornstein/Mullins.....none of them give a rats ass what you'd work for or not. You're just another resume in a stack of them.

Why would someone keep working for less money than they are capable of receiving? Haha, philosophy major huh?:insane: Anybody else a business major?

I don't know. But when the bar gets lowered sufficiently where ALL pilots are being paid beans because everyone's willing to "fly for food", you going to ask that question then?

 

[MikeD]

All I read about is the school bashing, when in real life, it is the airlines that hire the low time marketing hyped pilot. At least the airlines get a product that has a level of training in an RJ sim which a fresh CFI, FBO type does not. The FBO CFI has paid the dues but has a stronger chance of not making it to IOE. Don't you think the regionals know this by now?

The regionals are willing to hire anyone that will work for their miniscule wages. Airlines hire from both pools....pilot-mill, as well as FBO trained. What's the difference? So a guy gets a few hours in an RJ sim.......1-2 years later after he's been tooling around in a Cherokee/Seminole and his RJ training was that old, what difference is it going to make? Pilot-mill pilot and FBO pilot are the same, IMO. And the airlines are going to train you THEIR way, regardless of the previous experience you've had. If one guy has a few hours in an RJ sim, and another has none, both are going to go through the exact same training. The advantage, if any, will only be present for a while.....after that in the airline's specific training, the students will be pretty much par.

 

[Trip7]

So a regional isn't an airline? Hmmm. Kell/Bob etc....were you guys aware of this?

I forgot to put major in front of airline, whoops, I though I think you should have figured that out.

Next, you are dead wrong about the downslide in pay reaching up to majors, dead wrong. It will never happen, a guaranty it. I would bet you all the money I had it won't. It doesn't make sense. People hurry to the regionals because they want to get to the major airlines faster! The regional airline executives know this alreadly. The major airlines executives know that when they hire a pilot in most cases they are there to resume the rest of their career and therefore demand much higher pay. UPS, FEDEX, and Southwest all just raised pilot pay so there goes your theory. BTW, in case you haven't noticed, ATP, MAPD, and many other bridge programs have been around for a while and they have graduates at those respective major airlines and they weren't screaming "hey, pay us less!" You think Im going to sit down with a group of other pilots at my major airline and say to the CEO, I'm willing to work for less? Get outta here lol. Its all common sense to me, its sad you guys can't see. The industry is one the rise. Watch what happens in the next couple years when pilots start retiring left and right. Minimums will drop and pay will increase due to the demand. All you will hear from me is "I told you so"

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

God you're stupid. Look at Allegiant, where you can already fly MD80s for RJ pay!

 

[Trip7]

The regionals are willing to hire anyone that will work for their miniscule wages. Airlines hire from both pools....pilot-mill, as well as FBO trained. What's the difference? So a guy gets a few hours in an RJ sim.......1-2 years later after he's been tooling around in a Cherokee/Seminole and his RJ training was that old, what difference is it going to make? Pilot-mill pilot and FBO pilot are the same, IMO. And the airlines are going to train you THEIR way, regardless of the previous experience you've had. If one guy has a few hours in an RJ sim, and another has none, both are going to go through the exact same training. The advantage, if any, will only be present for a while.....after that in the airline's specific training, the students will be pretty much par.

Pilot-mill pilot and FBO pilot are not the same! If FBO pilot is a slow learner or not incredibly bright he might be a washout. Yeah they will be the same if the FBO pilot makes it through lol, seeing he has a greater chance of failing then the other guy with the sim time. I know this is a statistic that regional airlines have figured out. Why do the major airlines not institute this? Because the pilots they hire have done it before at the regionals in a 121 environment, no need for a bridge program there!

So yeah the regionals are trying to save a buck, they dont want to waste 30k on some washout! Got one spot left for the next class, one FBO pilot other pilot an ATP pilot. 9 out of 10 cases the ATP pilot would be chosen by the regionals. Reputation baby, Reputation.

 

[MikeD]

I forgot to put major in front of airline, whoops, I though I think you should have figured that out.

Was being facetious.

Next, you are dead wrong about the downslide in pay reaching up to majors, dead wrong. It will never happen, a guaranty it. I would bet you all the money I had it won't. It doesn't make sense. People hurry to the regionals because they want to get to the major airlines faster! The regional airline executives know this alreadly. The major airlines executives know that when they hire a pilot in most cases they are there to resume the rest of their career and therefore demand much higher pay. UPS, FEDEX, and Southwest all just raised pilot pay so there goes your theory. BTW, in case you haven't noticed, ATP, MAPD, and many other bridge programs have been around for a while and they have graduates at those respective major airlines and they weren't screaming "hey, pay us less!" You think Im going to sit down with a group of other pilots at my major airline and say to the CEO, I'm willing to work for less? Get outta here lol. Its all common sense to me, its sad you guys can't see. The industry is one the rise. Watch what happens in the next couple years when pilots start retiring left and right. Minimums will drop and pay will increase due to the demand. All you will hear from me is "I told you so"

Man...your naievity is amazing. Not a personal slam at all, just an observation about you not knowing how much you don't know. Reference the bold portions above. First off, there are no guarantees in aviation. Saying "it'll never happen" because "it wouldn't make sense" is pretty funny in this industry. The CEOs don't give a damn how much money a pilot will demand to work for when there's a ton more pilots out therethat will willingly • themselves out for much, much less.....almost for free. Thats what you're not getting. They could care less where you are in your career! It doesn't matter to them.

I'm willing to wait for the "I told you so" there, Kit Darby jr.

 

[MikeD]

Pilot-mill pilot and FBO pilot are not the same! If FBO pilot is a slow learner or not incredibly bright he might be a washout. Yeah they will be the same if the FBO pilot makes it through lol, seeing he has a greater chance of failing then the other guy with the sim time. I know this is a statistic that regional airlines have figured out. Why do the major airlines not institute this? Because the pilots they hire have done it before at the regionals in a 121 environment, no need for a bridge program there!

So yeah the regionals are trying to save a buck, they dont want to waste 30k on some washout! Got one spot left for the next class, one FBO pilot other pilot an ATP pilot. 9 out of 10 cases the ATP pilot would be chosen by the regionals. Reputation baby, Reputation.

Pilot mill babies and FBO babies are the same, apart from flashy amenities in one, and maybe not in the other. Pilot mills generally have the blind leading the blind with their incestuous stud to CFI programs, and to an extent, so do some FBOs.

The sim time doesn't matter. I'm telling you. Everyone goes through the same training for the airline....it's called standarization. There's no A-track for guys with 2.5 of RJ sim time, and a B-track for guys without it. Everyone goes through the same program post-hire.

So using your logic, I'd fail out of regional training since I've never had any time in a CRJ sim?

That's funny.

Go ahead and work your theory if you like, it's your money. All I (and 200 others here) are saying, is that you don't have all the answers you'd like to think you do.

Humble-ness, young padawan.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Yea, just look at the money savings getting pilots to pay the training for regionals at JetU, FlightSafety, and even ATP (to some extent). This saves the airline money. I hate to think the future will only be this way to get a 121 job.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Pilot-mill pilot and FBO pilot are not the same! If FBO pilot is a slow learner or not incredibly bright he might be a washout. Yeah they will be the same if the FBO pilot makes it through lol, seeing he has a greater chance of failing then the other guy with the sim time. I know this is a statistic that regional airlines have figured out. Why do the major airlines not institute this? Because the pilots they hire have done it before at the regionals in a 121 environment, no need for a bridge program there!

So yeah the regionals are trying to save a buck, they dont want to waste 30k on some washout! Got one spot left for the next class, one FBO pilot other pilot an ATP pilot. 9 out of 10 cases the ATP pilot would be chosen by the regionals. Reputation baby, Reputation.

I am a "FBO pilot" and damn proud of it. I guarantee you that I will have just of good of a chance of going to a regional at 1000 hours, if I wanted that. But guess what, I dont. I want to go 135 freight, where they shy away from "pilot mill pilots" because of the sheltered training environment they are in. I dare you to ask how much hard IFR those people have. Most will be less than 5 hours. How many approaches will they have done with clouds down to 300'. Many will say ZERO. Thats right very little REAL experience. you can take that hood off whenever you need to, those clouds dont just dissapear.

The FBO pilot you call "lesser" will be the one to save you a$$ when shart hits the fan. Because he has been there and done that, but at night and on his own.

Oh crap, I have about 10 hours in an ATR sim from back when I was 6, and another 2 in a CRJ over the summer. I guess I am a sellout now

Oh wait, I didn't have to pay 8 grand for it so its all cool now.