PCL hires 8 of 11 from ATP
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Trip7
Well-Known Member
Ha! I understand, I just threw facts at you that sent your little 1000 hr "experience" theory down the drain and and all you can do is throw and insult at me while you wave the white flag. I have a pretty extensive background in debate so its kinda hard to beat me. Its ok buddy, you tried and failed. Hey you win some, and you lose some. So keep building time buddy, I'll be the tool FO enjoying my seat SAFELY flying across the county while you several thousand feet below gaining experience.
Maximillian here is pretty high maintenance if you ask me. Maybe the regional airline executives should listen to him and start paying 50k for 1st year FOs and 100k for 1st year Captains instead of 70k, because we are so poor on 70k!
Uh, I already started training and I am almost done with college so no point in going to MAPD. My point is its not how many hrs you have that determine if you are qualified to fly with the regional airlines, its the QUALITY of your experience. If a pilot is groomed from start to finish to specifically fly in an airline cockpit environment, it CAN be done in 250hr as PROVEN by Lufthansa or Air China.
Prove me wrong then...with facts please not just nonsense theories you took out of head. Prove to me that captains are flying single pilot IFR, tell me why 70k is not enough for a first year regional captain, prove to me why you are so much better automatically at 1000hrs than 300hr with no outlook on the type of training environment. I can tell you that several MESA captains say it doesnt matter how many hrs the FO has some take longer than others to ajust to a jet and 121 environment. Some 1500hr guys scare the hell out of him. Some 300 hr guys scare the hell out of him. Some 1500hr guys are wonderboys! Some 300hr guys are wonderboys! There is NO pattern that dicates how many hrs equals how good you are, its all in the individual and his quality of training. Well, Good Luck! hint...keep waving the white flag
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"A new-hire who passes Indoc, Ground, Oral, Sim, Check-ride, and IOE, has every right to be in the right sight of an airline, no matter how many hours they have"-MESA ERJ-145 Captain"
Well, the Mesa Capt you keep quoting is certainly entitled to his opinion, as are you as someone who just started training. I happen to know an ex-Mesa RJ checkairman (now UPS) who would disagree with you both. Or maybe Bog, our resident Mesa Capt, would like to chime in.
The argument about how it works in Europe is the same as US military pilot argument. My rebuttle would be that the standards to get into and through either one is MUCH higher any of the current ab initio programs in the US. FSA direct track, MAPD, Jet U, ATP, none of them are on par with the US military. Just my opinion....
"I have a pretty extensive background in debate so its kinda hard to beat me. Its ok buddy, you tried and failed. Hey you win some, and you lose some."
I'd say that's quite the statement for a 42 post JC newbie who has just started their flight training. Let me just say, you'll get more out JC as a humble listener than an in-your-face debate champ.
Well, the Mesa Capt you keep quoting is certainly entitled to his opinion, as are you as someone who just started training. I happen to know an ex-Mesa RJ checkairman (now UPS) who would disagree with you both. Or maybe Bog, our resident Mesa Capt, would like to chime in.
The argument about how it works in Europe is the same as US military pilot argument. My rebuttle would be that the standards to get into and through either one is MUCH higher any of the current ab initio programs in the US. FSA direct track, MAPD, Jet U, ATP, none of them are on par with the US military. Just my opinion....
"I have a pretty extensive background in debate so its kinda hard to beat me. Its ok buddy, you tried and failed. Hey you win some, and you lose some."
I'd say that's quite the statement for a 42 post JC newbie who has just started their flight training. Let me just say, you'll get more out JC as a humble listener than an in-your-face debate champ.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Wow... a kinder and gentler Don. I'm not sure if I like it less or more then the old flight info style Don.
Anyhow...
777Forever, you unfortuantly don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. You think you do, and hence your arguments make sense to you, but unfortunatly for people who are actually flying in the right (and left) seat of a jet or a tprop, it's a load of patooy.
See, sure, airlines over there do in fact put people in the right seat with only 250 hours all the time. But do you know how much ground school and sim and FTD training they go through? It takes hundreds of hours to get your ratings in the JAA system. Sure, you may be proud of your private license, or instrument, or what ever you have, but most of those ratings (even the holy CFI initial) is nothing more then a license to continue your learning. In the true Ab Initio environment a license isn't a ticket to learn, it's a statement that you are ready to go.
As far the pay thing. I'm not even going to go there. It has nothing to do with being high maintenence. Sure, you can live on 70K a year. Sure, first year FO pay is survivable. 99% of the time nothing is going to happen to make you have to work to protect those 51 people behind you, but for that 1% when something goes wrong you should be making more then a super market check out person.
I could keep going, but your superior debt skills have made me run out of things to say.
Anyhow...
777Forever, you unfortuantly don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. You think you do, and hence your arguments make sense to you, but unfortunatly for people who are actually flying in the right (and left) seat of a jet or a tprop, it's a load of patooy.
See, sure, airlines over there do in fact put people in the right seat with only 250 hours all the time. But do you know how much ground school and sim and FTD training they go through? It takes hundreds of hours to get your ratings in the JAA system. Sure, you may be proud of your private license, or instrument, or what ever you have, but most of those ratings (even the holy CFI initial) is nothing more then a license to continue your learning. In the true Ab Initio environment a license isn't a ticket to learn, it's a statement that you are ready to go.
As far the pay thing. I'm not even going to go there. It has nothing to do with being high maintenence. Sure, you can live on 70K a year. Sure, first year FO pay is survivable. 99% of the time nothing is going to happen to make you have to work to protect those 51 people behind you, but for that 1% when something goes wrong you should be making more then a super market check out person.
I could keep going, but your superior debt skills have made me run out of things to say.
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
You didn't throw facts at all. As DE727 said, ab initio programs from other countries are entirely different from the programs you're talking about and are much more like a military program than anything in the US. The biggest difference? The airline is picking up the cost of training. That means that they can hold their pilots to standards like:
You want to know what the real requirements for most programs that get you to the airlines in low time in the US are? Fat checkbook and a pulse.
Here's the fundamental problem: You're arguing that a 300-hr pilot is just as safe in an airline environment (which is something you have NO experience in) based on the fact that there haven't been many accidents publicly reported that are directly attributable to low-time pilots either screwing up or requiring so much babysitting that the captain screws up. But the fact is that there are plenty of incidents where safety is compromised that the public (and occasionally even the airline or FAA) won't hear about. There is no concrete way to measure the true effectiveness of crewmembers other than talking to the people who fly with them. People on this board are telling you that they don't want to fly a jet with a 300hr pilot based either on direct experience or what heard from people in the industry that they trust. I guess you feel that you feel you know more about the subject than those of us who actually have worked in a 121 environment.
Take whatever route you want, but you might want to keep the wierd debate master attitude in check, because it probably won't help you down the road.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Without any other information, I am glad that 777forever isn't one of my students.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Actually...I believe that if a student passes the program they become a two striper and don't touch controls for quite awhile. Observing first then after sever hundred hours they get to drop the gear,or lower the flaps( sarcasm).
But seriously as a two striper in the european theatre of commercial flying you may be on the plane with 300 hrs. but your definately not SIC!
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Thank you for proving my point, if you are in a training environment configured just to produce an airline pilot, you can reach that level at a much significantly lower time you guys that obsess with the high time pilot. Yes it takes hundreds of hours to get your JAA licenses yes, all 200 and something it takes for them to get into the rightseat
Yeah you guys can keep saying, you're young and you dont know what you're talking about blah blah, im not stupid people. I know I dont have a clue what im talking about, but I know people who do that agree with me. I would not be debating you pilots if I didn't have any backup. I spoke to several pilots at the majors at our schools alumni dinner about this topic and they your opinions are nonsense. My friend at Mesa says its nonsense. The safety record of the regional and major airlines say its nonsense. So Maxillian and any other aspiring regional pilots that disagree with me I gladly hope you continue to do so. Dont apply to the regionals and keep on building time and valuable experience. Keep holding out for your coveted 100k payday. Step aside, you will certainly provide less competition for me to get in my seat!
Hey jtrain do you got less than 1000hrs? If you do, would you take the job if offered by lets say Skywest right now?
BrettInLJ
Well-Known Member
LOL, please John chime in... I can't wait. :nana2:
BTW 777, to those of us that know and have flown with John personally this quote just proved his profound, succinct one-word observation of you he made ealier.
777forever, I'm curious why you believe that the professional pilots on this site are telling you something different then? Why would we tell you an untruth (if that is what you believe it to be)? What is our motivation? What do we have to gain by telling you these things if they are not true???
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Thank you for proving my point, if you are in a training environment configured just to produce an airline pilot, you can reach that level at a much significantly lower time you guys that obsess with the high time pilot. Yes it takes hundreds of hours to get your JAA licenses yes, all 200 and something it takes for them to get into the rightseat
Yeah you guys can keep saying, you're young and you dont know what you're talking about blah blah, im not stupid people. I know I dont have a clue what im talking about, but I know people who do that agree with me. I would not be debating you pilots if I didn't have any backup. I spoke to several pilots at the majors at our schools alumni dinner about this topic and they your opinions are nonsense. My friend at Mesa says its nonsense. The safety record of the regional and major airlines say its nonsense. So Maximillian and any other aspiring regional pilots that disagree with me I gladly hope you continue to do so. Dont apply to the regionals and keep on building time and valuable experience. Keep holding out for your coveted 100k payday. Step aside, you will certainly provide less competition for me to get in my seat!
Hey jtrain do you got less than 1000hrs? If you do, would you take the job if offered by lets say Skywest right now?
You admit to having no clue about what you're saying and yet your arguing with professional pilots who do have more experience & hours then you. And are daily doing what you're in school to learn to do. That right there is real smart if you ask me. Yet you only seem to heed advice from Mesa pilots as the golden truth when they are only one small percentage of this industry. Furthermore not sure why you come to a site and ask/respond to the same questions over and over if your mind is already made up? Why come to a discussion with a concrete attitude that can't be swayed where is the logic in that?
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
He is trolling. They try to get people all ruffled up and make long drawn out responses to their ingnorant ramblings. That's what trolls do.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Thank you for proving my point, if you are in a training environment configured just to produce an airline pilot, you can reach that level at a much significantly lower time you guys that obsess with the high time pilot. Yes it takes hundreds of hours to get your JAA licenses yes, all 200 and something it takes for them to get into the rightseat
Yeah you guys can keep saying, you're young and you dont know what you're talking about blah blah, im not stupid people. I know I dont have a clue what im talking about, but I know people who do that agree with me. I would not be debating you pilots if I didn't have any backup. I spoke to several pilots at the majors at our schools alumni dinner about this topic and they your opinions are nonsense. My friend at Mesa says its nonsense. The safety record of the regional and major airlines say its nonsense. So Maxillian and any other aspiring regional pilots that disagree with me I gladly hope you continue to do so. Dont apply to the regionals and keep on building time and valuable experience. Keep holding out for your coveted 100k payday. Step aside, you will certainly provide less competition for me to get in my seat!
Hey jtrain do you got less than 1000hrs? If you do, would you take the job if offered by lets say Skywest right now?
I'm not headed to Skywest, or any other regional for that matter.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Hmmmm...dunno. I actually think that he is a firm believer in what he is saying. That being said the thought of him being a troll has a crossed my mind often!
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
Why waste the time at ATP to get to PCL? JetU can do it in three months and under $20,000!!!!
I'm going to FL to look at them!
I'm going to FL to look at them!
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Dear god. I've never seen someone bury their head in the sand and still keep arguing a point so much. Don and several others have pointed out the flaw in your "facts," yet you keep going. Let's see if I can try again....
1) MAPD, JetU, CAPT etc have TWO requirements for entrance, financial ability and a pulse (as stated earlier). Your European ab initio program that you point to and say "Ha!" has a battery of aptitude and psychological tests that each applicant must pass. I'd wager that less than 20% of the people that apply and get accepted to "ab initio" programs here in the states would even make through those tests, and they STILL might not be selected into the programs.
2) The goal of programs like MAPD, Capt, etc are NOT to successfully place competent FOs in the right seats, it's to MAKE MONEY. Once they leave the school and open a slot for the next guy, the school couldn't care less what happens to them. Ask the poor guys strung out by a comparable "ab initio" program -- ATA in Orlando. The Europen ab inito programs are run by the airline associated with them, which means the goal IS to train and generate a successful FO for them. I'd wager the washout rate is a LOT higher there than ab initio programs over here. Bust a checkride? No problem, we'll give ya some more training.....for a fee.
The point, which you've managed to miss NUMEROUS times 777, is that you CANNOT COMPARE THE MILITARY OR AIRLINE RUN/EUROPEAN AB INTIO PROGRAMS TO PROFIT BASED PROGRAMS. Period. Just b/c it says "Delta" or "Mesa" in the program name does not mean it's owned and operated by that specific airline. Marketing is a wonderful thing for these companies. If I had a dollar for every person I've heard say "I'm gonna fly for Delta in a year or two" becuase they were going to DCA (or thinking about it)....well, yeah.
1) MAPD, JetU, CAPT etc have TWO requirements for entrance, financial ability and a pulse (as stated earlier). Your European ab initio program that you point to and say "Ha!" has a battery of aptitude and psychological tests that each applicant must pass. I'd wager that less than 20% of the people that apply and get accepted to "ab initio" programs here in the states would even make through those tests, and they STILL might not be selected into the programs.
2) The goal of programs like MAPD, Capt, etc are NOT to successfully place competent FOs in the right seats, it's to MAKE MONEY. Once they leave the school and open a slot for the next guy, the school couldn't care less what happens to them. Ask the poor guys strung out by a comparable "ab initio" program -- ATA in Orlando. The Europen ab inito programs are run by the airline associated with them, which means the goal IS to train and generate a successful FO for them. I'd wager the washout rate is a LOT higher there than ab initio programs over here. Bust a checkride? No problem, we'll give ya some more training.....for a fee.
The point, which you've managed to miss NUMEROUS times 777, is that you CANNOT COMPARE THE MILITARY OR AIRLINE RUN/EUROPEAN AB INTIO PROGRAMS TO PROFIT BASED PROGRAMS. Period. Just b/c it says "Delta" or "Mesa" in the program name does not mean it's owned and operated by that specific airline. Marketing is a wonderful thing for these companies. If I had a dollar for every person I've heard say "I'm gonna fly for Delta in a year or two" becuase they were going to DCA (or thinking about it)....well, yeah.
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