how can you possibly live on a pilot's starting salary??????

[jtrain609]

Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

Only if you're sellin' meth on the side to pay for little Jimmy's college fund!

 

[tonyw]

You can EXIST on no salary at all.

But can you LIVE on it?

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

Only if you're sellin' meth on the side to pay for little Jimmy's college fund!

Now JH you do know that I wasn't alive during 1960 and that I only have 3 siblings right?

Back on topic. I normally don't like or approve of greed but I as a future airline pilot want to be making $25-350k as a 15-20 yr. capt. and not settling for $80g's. That just me...

 

[B767Driver]

I must point out...that for the responsibility involved...the pay has become way too low. Even at the majors. Flying is not an easy job if you are doing it professionally. The pro's make it look easy most of the time...but it's not. To say $80K is a good salary flying airplanes RJ size or larger...I'd have to disagree. I'd say minimally acceptable for the responsibility of a $30m jet and the lives of all those people. Not to mention the responsibility to the company's business model to make the hub and spoke system work so all of those people make their connections and go happily on their way.

The commuters exploit the low timers and hire them as FO's for low pay...because they aren't qualified to do anything else. It's probably become the lowest position in the industry. At least the one that seems to require one of the least amount of experience to attain. Maybe I'm wrong...do charter company's hire lower time pilots than the commuters?

 

[skydog]

Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

Here goes my input. Pay in aviation does not follow or equate to pay progression in other industries. While the starting salaries are absurdly low...by the time you reach the ten to twelve year point in the industry you will probably be earning more than the average engineer or businessman...even at the regionals. My own pay pay progression per year went from $8000 to $16,000 to $23,000 to $35,000 to $48,000 to $85,000 to $120,000 to $150,000 over a twelve year span of time.

One of the reasons starting pay is so low...even at the regional first officer level...is that the pilot is not sufficiently qualified and experienced to command higher pay. The pilot is in essence "still in school" as an apprentice...learning the ropes and gaining experience to eventually serve as captain. In aviation...you cannot graduate from college with 500hrs and be qualifed to fly much of anything. The real education comes from years and years of "apprenticeship" as a first officer. As the pilot becomes an experienced apprentice...his ability to serve in command increases...his stock rises...and his pay accordingly.

When the pilot becomes sufficiently experienced to serve in command then his ability to earn a decent wage improves. Until that experience level is attained, however, the pilot is more of an "apprentice" than a pilot. In my opinion, the regional airlines do not put much importance on the first officer position. Otherwise they would hire more experienced pilots into that role. They view this position as an "apprenticeship" and rely on the captain to coach, mentor and conduct the flight in a safe manner.

Low pay is probably a good thing for young, low time pilots. Without it...it would be much more difficult to find a quality flying job...as much more experienced pilots would be more willing to accept the role.

I call ######## on that. In my opinion a pilot has a skill; a skill that took a lot of effort, time and money to develop. A pilot utilizing that skill with an airline, brings value to that airline. The airline makes money by employing that pilot. They don't make less money because the pilot in question only has 1 or 2 years of experience. They sure has hell don't sell tickets based on the experience level of the pilot flying that flight.

In terms of the value a pilot brings to his employer, a first year pilot is worth no less than a 10 year pilot and vice versa. Therefore, they should be paid exactly the same.

Pilots should be paid a wage based on equipment and position. Years of experience should have nothing to do with it. That wage should be adjusted each year for cost of living. Pilots who take on additonal responsibilties (check airman, ground instructor, etc) should make additional money because they bring added value to the company.

 

[skydog]

Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't. Money means nothing to me and I would rather do something that makes me happy, but it's important to my parents and they would be very disappointed if I decided to go with the flying career instead of something more "stable." I can still fly, just not as a career. Plus they're paying most of my college tuition, so I can't complain. It would be disrespectful to them .

I don't want to hijack this thread, so I may start a new thread on it.[/QUOTE]

Of course money means nothing to you. That's because you have never been in the position of having to support yourself, or a family. When you are trying to figure out how you are going to pay for the roof over your head, the food in your stomach, the clothes on your back, plus save money for retirement and Junior's college, money is going to mean A LOT to you.

 

[wheelsup]

Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

The 18 year scale at regionals is REDICULOUS. If I was ALPA president for a day that would be one of the first things I change.

It should be around a 5-8 year scale, then COLA increases (IMO).

Majors with a 12 year scale, that makes a bit more sense. You are there for a 'career' and staying 12 years is more of a goal then staying 18 with a regional.

I agree with skydog in a way, I would be much happier if we were paid a salary with COLA increases. ie:

Regional (50 seater for example)
FO: 35-40k/yr from day 1 + COLA
CA: 65-70k/yr from day 1 (upgrade) + COLA

Something like that. Extend it to other aircraft etc. etc. All ALPA contracts should be the same or close to it. Why is there an almost $10/hr difference in 50 seat 2nd year FO pay at some of these places????

 

[SteveC]

Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

In terms of the value a pilot brings to his employer, a first year pilot is worth no less than a 10 year pilot and vice versa. Therefore, they should be paid exactly the same.

Interesting concept. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that skill, knowledge and experience, while important from a pilot's standpoint, have no intrinsic value to the airline? Then why do pay scales increase with years of service (note that the increases are typically much higher than the average C.O.L. increase would call for)?

 

[B767Driver]

Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

I call ######## on that. In my opinion a pilot has a skill; a skill that took a lot of effort, time and money to develop. A pilot utilizing that skill with an airline, brings value to that airline. The airline makes money by employing that pilot. They don't make less money because the pilot in question only has 1 or 2 years of experience. They sure has hell don't sell tickets based on the experience level of the pilot flying that flight.

In terms of the value a pilot brings to his employer, a first year pilot is worth no less than a 10 year pilot and vice versa. Therefore, they should be paid exactly the same.

Pilots should be paid a wage based on equipment and position. Years of experience should have nothing to do with it. That wage should be adjusted each year for cost of living. Pilots who take on additonal responsibilties (check airman, ground instructor, etc) should make additional money because they bring added value to the company.

Either I miscommunicated or you missed my point.

The reason commuter pay is so low, IMO, is that the companies exploit those pilots whose qualifications are so low that they can't do anything else. A 1000 hour pilot can't even fly freight at night in a CE206.

Somehow, the FAA allows such a candidate in the cockpit of an airliner (my apologies to Seagull who doesn't like the term) which really makes no sense to me. You can't fly cancelled checks in a single...but it's okay to strap on an RJ and fly 70 people to ORD?

 

[LoadMasterC141]

Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

Wow! This has been one of the best threads I have read on this forum to date! Thanks so much everyone for your most excellently communicated statements. It really helps the lowly peeps like me

You guys are right. It's my life to live and I'm going to do what I love to do, instead of going with what "makes sense" and sitting behind a desk 10 years later wondering about what could have been. I'm still going to get the degree (something to fall back on,) but I'm going to continue the flight training at college and keep building those hours.

Dude, take it from someone that is there, you do not want to be here.
I thought I could mediate the desire to become a pilot by making lots' of money and having all the "toys", even if it meant doing something that I do not enjoy in any way. It does not cut it man.

To make it even worse, before I became a real life Dilbert comic, I flew as a crewmember in the AF, leading an exciting life of travel, making very little, but having the time of my life so far. I had the "view" from my office window. It makes it even harder to swallow being an Excel Jockey in a cube farm.

Do what you want, not what your parents want you to do. If they are good parents, they will support your dreams. If they are misguided (But still good), they will want you to follow "their" dream. Don't do it. Parents gotta learn too.

767Driver and Chris: Awesome perspective! Funny thing: When I told my folks I was going for the civilian pilot route, my father, being the biggest money miser on the planet, sat down and went over the financial overview of it with me. He noticed exactly what you stated: Pay progression is certainly a factor. People on this site have generally (I said Generally) portrayed this HORRIBLE notion of pay. Sorry, but I do not see it as that bad. A little sacrifice at the beginning, some luck, and you are quickly making a very decent wage("Quickly" being a subjective term used in proportion to my progression at a non-aviation job).

I make $70k/yr right now(That is including a hefty bonus that cannot always be relied on. I think we may lose out this year). I get 8 days off a month(Weekends), if I am not forced to work a weekend, and 10 days of vacation a year(15 in 5 years! woohoo!). My pay increases a standard of no more than 3%/yr, no matter how good my review is. My boss's pay level is the next major step, whom I have 3 people in front of me waiting for his 34 yr old butt to die of old age. He only makes an additional 10k a year. Feasibly, I could be in his position at a different company in the next 5-7 years.

Oh yeah....I AM MISERABLE!!!!!! I get home at 1730, in bed by 2130 to be at work by 0700. 4 hours off? Woop tee doo!!!! And just like others have said, being miserable has noticeably affected my health and other things; I am just as miserable on weekends! For someone that has always been described by his friends and peers as "happy-go lucky, going with the flow", my current state is quite distressing.

Learn the hard way like I have if you like, but for me, not following my dreams has not worked out well so far.

 

[killbilly]

With the exception of the AF gig, I'm in roughly the same place as Loadmaster, and I agree with absolutely everything he just said.

'Cept I'm going to have to get my degree too, but...

 

[Murdoughnut]

For three years I lived off of $12k per year while in graduate school. Did it suck? Oh yea - I could afford to fly back home twice a year and that was about it. No dining out, no cable TV, nothing like that. But if you have to, you can make it happen.

Think about the family of four living off of less than that. I'm no liberal, but if you made minimum wage in this country, you'd actually make less than I did during grad school. Can't imagine what I would have done if I were responsible for anyone other than myself.

 

[skydog]

Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

Interesting concept. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that skill, knowledge and experience, while important from a pilot's standpoint, have no intrinsic value to the airline? Then why do pay scales increase with years of service (note that the increases are typically much higher than the average C.O.L. increase would call for)?

I had to look up the word intrinsic, and I'm still not sure I know what it means, but I'll have a go.

Yes that's what I am saying. It may be generally true and accepted that a 2000 hour pilot is "better" than a 1000 pilot, but how do you translate that to worth? What does that 2000 hour pilot do to bring more value to the company than the 1000 hour pilot? Certainly nothing you can quantify, or put a price tag on.

Consider an athlete like Michael Jordan. There was a period of time when you could not beg, borrow, or steal a Chicago Bulls ticket, because he was on the team. People paid to see him play basketball. His presence on the team had a direct effect on the value of ticket. Thus his salary was a lot higher than some third-stringer no-name player.

Contrast that with airline flying. People want to get from point A to B. They don't give a damn whether the guy up front has 500 or 5000 hours. "Just get me where I want to go, and don't crash the plane" Oh sure, if you ask them, they will tell you that they would rather have a high time pilot than a low time pilot. But if you asked them to pay an extra $20 on their ticket to get that experienced pilot, they will say no, or fly a cheaper airline.

This is why I say all pilots with a given airline should be paid the same wage, based on position and equipment, regardless of seniority, longevity, or qualifications. If you are sitting in that seat than you are obviously as qualified as you need to be, from the company's point of view.

To answer your question, airline pay scales increase with years of service because that is how the company and the union have negotiated them. The only reason it is important from a pilot's point of view is because you need the hours and experience to get a better paying job.

 

[derg]

Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

Contrast that with airline flying. People want to get from point A to B. They don't give a damn whether the guy up front has 500 or 5000 hours. "Just get me where I want to go, and don't crash the plane" Oh sure, if you ask them, they will tell you that they would rather have a high time pilot than a low time pilot. But if you asked them to pay an extra $20 on their ticket to get that experienced pilot, they will say no, or fly a cheaper airline.

You just had a heart attack.

There's "Joe Schmo's Cardiack Shack" and "Lincoln Memorial Hospital".

Your choice?

This is why I say all pilots with a given airline should be paid the same wage, based on position and equipment, regardless of seniority, longevity, or qualifications. If you are sitting in that seat than you are obviously as qualified as you need to be, from the company's point of view.

To answer your question, airline pay scales increase with years of service because that is how the company and the union have negotiated them. The only reason it is important from a pilot's point of view is because you need the hours and experience to get a better paying job.

But here's the trick. Under your system, there ARE no better paying jobs to go to.

Your assignment: Read "Flying the Line" by George Hopkins for a quick refresher.

 

[B767Driver]

Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

To answer your question, airline pay scales increase with years of service because that is how the company and the union have negotiated them. The only reason it is important from a pilot's point of view is because you need the hours and experience to get a better paying job.

Or maybe it's because you become more valuable to the company. As you progress in years of service and seniority...you are moving closer to becoming a captain. An airline definitely wants its experienced folks in the captain's seat. Hiring a street captain anywhere is definitely not ideal, regardless of experience. Training, procedures, policies, etc are definitely different between carriers. Those accrued years of service definitely mean something.

 

[B767Driver]

Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

Contrast that with airline flying. People want to get from point A to B. They don't give a damn whether the guy up front has 500 or 5000 hours. "Just get me where I want to go, and don't crash the plane" Oh sure, if you ask them, they will tell you that they would rather have a high time pilot than a low time pilot. But if you asked them to pay an extra $20 on their ticket to get that experienced pilot, they will say no, or fly a cheaper airline.

.

I believe they do care. They just trust the "powers that be" that an appropriate qualifed person is up there. Has it become misguided trust?

 

[Trip7]

Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

I had to look up the word intrinsic, and I'm still not sure I know what it means, but I'll have a go.

Yes that's what I am saying. It may be generally true and accepted that a 2000 hour pilot is "better" than a 1000 pilot, but how do you translate that to worth? What does that 2000 hour pilot do to bring more value to the company than the 1000 hour pilot? Certainly nothing you can quantify, or put a price tag on.

Consider an athlete like Michael Jordan. There was a period of time when you could not beg, borrow, or steal a Chicago Bulls ticket, because he was on the team. People paid to see him play basketball. His presence on the team had a direct effect on the value of ticket. Thus his salary was a lot higher than some third-stringer no-name player.

Contrast that with airline flying. People want to get from point A to B. They don't give a damn whether the guy up front has 500 or 5000 hours. "Just get me where I want to go, and don't crash the plane" Oh sure, if you ask them, they will tell you that they would rather have a high time pilot than a low time pilot. But if you asked them to pay an extra $20 on their ticket to get that experienced pilot, they will say no, or fly a cheaper airline.

This is why I say all pilots with a given airline should be paid the same wage, based on position and equipment, regardless of seniority, longevity, or qualifications. If you are sitting in that seat than you are obviously as qualified as you need to be, from the company's point of view.

To answer your question, airline pay scales increase with years of service because that is how the company and the union have negotiated them. The only reason it is important from a pilot's point of view is because you need the hours and experience to get a better paying job.

Worst idea I have heard in a while. Why would you want a job that pays the same thing year after year and years after loyal service! There would be a massive strike if this took place lol! And it takes the excitement out of bid periods and each one year anniversary with the company.

 

[ChrisH]

One point to bring up, however, is that your typical person, outside of aviation, will not make over $80K per year. VERY FEW jobs pay above that, and those that do, require MANY years of experience to reach that level.

I know numerous people who work in various career fields, and none make over $80 to $90K, and many less than that. Yet, they have a home, cars, family, and seem to be doing just fine.

Whether $80K is an appropriate salary for someone flying a 50 passenger jet, is another discussion, but as far as it being a good salary, compared to what others are making, is another.

To say that $80K is underpaid for an airline captain, flying a 50 seater is understandable. But to imply that it is somehow poverty wages, is not right.

As far as pay ranges at the regionals extending to 18 years. It takes most people 15-20 years to reach the top of their pay range. That is not abnormal. You cannot just focus on some person you have heard of who made $300K in their career, two years into it, because that doesn't even come close to making up any majority of income earners in this country.

Just FYI, the average salary in the U.S. today, overall, is $45,000. The average salary for a college educated person, is $70,632. The quartile's of income, range from lower quartile, second quartile, third quartile, and top quartile. A regional captain falls within the third quartile, and even into the top quartile. Third quartile ranges from $69K-$82K, and top quartile ranges from $83K-$185K. This means a regional captain earns within the top percentage of income earners in this country.

I am not going to argue against making $80K to fly 50 to 70 pax around in an airliner as being underpaid, but I will argue that $80K is not a bad salary, when compared to what true salaries are elsewhere.

 

[LoadMasterC141]

And then look at where you fit in amongst everyone in the world: In the very top 1% of earning and thus, standard of living and lifestyle. Sometimes it is hard to see how lucky any of us, as Americans, are.

 

[BrettInLJ]

One point to bring up, however, is that your typical person, outside of aviation, will not make over $80K per year. VERY FEW jobs pay above that, and those that do, require MANY years of experience to reach that level.

Wrong. I made that after only a few years out of college as a software engineer. I still didn't care for my job.