how can you possibly live on a pilot's starting salary??????

Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

[ QUOTE ]
Also keep in mind that this pay structure was devised over many years when ALPA was very much in control. In other words they could have cut the pie differently. At one point, shortly after the introduction of jets, upgrades were brisk and FO pay really sucked (compared to today) believe it or not. There was still a lot of the attitude coming from the piston days that FOs were excess baggage and were lucky to get paid at all. But in the 70s with some airlines experiencing stagnation and even furloughs there was a lot of pressure to bring up FO and SO pay. So the percentages were brought up quite a bit.

Regional airlines have really upset the apple cart. The miscalculations that ALPA made in this area are too many to list. But if they had been able to see what was coming scope clauses would never have come in to ALPA contracts. In a misguided attempt to preserve the very high captain rates and current pay of major airline pilots that were already on the properties, they opened the door for what we have now.

The regionals are past their fast upgrade period and some are headed for downturns, if not shut downs. Then we'll see how much patience there is for getting stuck in these very low paying FO seats.

[/ QUOTE ]



Excellent point.
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

[ QUOTE ]


I'm 19. My parents don't live my life for me, but they do make a lot of the decisions. I want to fly, and I don't mind not making much money for the fist few years, but they see it differently. BTW, I'm not wasting money by going to college. I'm going to be attending a college with a flight program and majoring in something unrelated to aviation (business, english, or engineering) as a fallback and flying on the side. They want me to work in whatever field I major in, but I want to build as many hours as possible and fly for a living. Maybe I can get them to change their mind and let me go for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are 19, do not let your parents dictate your life. Pursue what you are interested in, not what they want you to be interested in. Be an adult.
shocked.gif
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

[ QUOTE ]
But all in all, EatSleepFly best summed it up "Dude, you're being silly. It doesn't matter what you make. You're flying a shiny new JET!!!!!!!!!!!! "


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh dear God NOOOOO! I was KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

shocked.gif
banghead.gif
crazy.gif
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

[ QUOTE ]
I know how you feel. I don't see how you can survive on that salry. My parents won't even let me pursue a career in aviation because the salary is too low. They want me to become a businessman or engineer because it pays more. I love flying and really wanted to be a professional pilot, but I'll have to settle for flight simming and flying the 172 around on weekends for a $100 hamburger.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to jump on the bandwagon of replies, here, but I've been down this road. Now I'm 30 and just getting on at the regionals. I don't regret the choices I've made because they've made me who I am. However, having gone with the same logic you are using, I endured a miserable four year marriage, two different careers (one of which was at least somewhat interesting), a crapload of money that only brought other problems, and a significant weight gain due in large part to my unhappiness. When I finally got out of my marriage and started treating myself as number one, life got so much better. In fact, I would have to say that my quality of life went exponentially up as my pay went down. Yes, you can live on $20,000/year. And fairly comfortably, I might add. My first year instructing, I made a whopping $6,000. I'm still here, and I still have debt. But I'm going to make it, and I'm going to do it on my own. And you know what? My parents are more proud of me now, and I have a better relationship with them now, than ever before when I was doing what they thought was good for me.
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

[ QUOTE ]
Also keep in mind that this pay structure was devised over many years when ALPA was very much in control. In other words they could have cut the pie differently. At one point, shortly after the introduction of jets, upgrades were brisk and FO pay really sucked (compared to today) believe it or not. There was still a lot of the attitude coming from the piston days that FOs were excess baggage and were lucky to get paid at all. But in the 70s with some airlines experiencing stagnation and even furloughs there was a lot of pressure to bring up FO and SO pay. So the percentages were brought up quite a bit. When I was hired in '79 I flew with many FOs who were at 15-16 years and not close to captain, they were ready to burn ALPA's house down. They were tired of captains and tired of pay stagnation. So FO and SO percentages were a high priority.

Regional airlines have really upset the apple cart. The miscalculations that ALPA made in this area are too many to list. But if they had been able to see what was coming scope clauses would never have come in to ALPA contracts. In a misguided attempt to preserve the very high captain rates and current pay of major airline pilots that were already on the properties, they opened the door for what we have now.

The regionals are past their fast upgrade period and some are headed for downturns if not shut downs. Then we'll see how much patience there is for getting stuck in these very low paying FO seats.

[/ QUOTE ]


Great info.

Flyover this is also one of my biggest concern too.

I agree with B767Driver that the FO is an apprentice and that
it doesn't have the experience to demand a high salary.

But at what point does the first officer becomes qualify to demand a high salary? at some airlines the upgrade time have being push back as much as seven years.

After 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 years of experiences as a first officer should you still get pay minimum wage because you are an apprentice?

It just doesn't make much economic sense to me to invest so much money and then get pay minimum wage for so many years.

At what point do we go past the illusion of flying a jet and realize that this is a job after all and that as professionals pilots should be well compensated for their job.

It's ok to eat Ramen noodles, but it gets old after a while.
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

[ QUOTE ]
If your smart you will skip the regionals.There are other places that pay better and have quicker upgrades.Viper what unit are you in?

[/ QUOTE ]

312AS, Travis AFB
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

[ QUOTE ]
Great info.

Flyover this is also one of my biggest concern too.

I agree with B767Driver that the FO is an apprentice and that
it doesn't have the experience to demand a high salary.

But at what point does the first officer becomes qualify to demand a high salary? at some airlines the upgrade time have being push back as much as seven years.

After 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 years of experiences as a first officer should you still get pay minimum wage because you are an apprentice?

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all you are trying to rationalize a system that is not necessarily rational, so you're already one step behind.

Pay has never been merit based at the airlines. It is seniority based. With the same background and skills you will earn vastly different incomes based on who hires you and how fast they are growing. There are RJ FOs that are more skilled than some 777 captains, it doesn't mean squat for either one's pay. If you can hold it and aren't so incompetent that you get fired, you get paid for it. It matters not at all if the guy sitting to your left was hired 2 months before you and because of growth he's been captain for 2 years and you're still FO. It's the way it is.

And in case you are wondering why it's the way it is, it's because it's the way it is. There's no other reason.

[ QUOTE ]
It just doesn't make much economic sense to me to invest so much money and then get pay minimum wage for so many years.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a personal decision. You need to educate yourself and determine your priorities. If the economic incentives of this job are diminished we will see different people aspiring to it. Maybe we'll see fewer flight schools. The market will work it all out. However, the current pay is not headed up anytime soon no matter what's fair. The truth is it has never been about what's fair. Airline pilot jobs became so highly renumerated because of strong union forces working in an industry that was sheltered from free market competition. That is over.

[ QUOTE ]
At what point do we go past the illusion of flying a jet and realize that this is a job after all and that as professionals pilots should be well compensated for their job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, when we all (including management) decide on what the defintion of "well compensated" is and the industry gets healthy enough to pay it then we'll be out of the woods. Any bets on when that is? I'm betting never, at least as far as agreeing on the "well compenssated" part. So that would be your decision regarding your future career plans.

[ QUOTE ]
It's ok to eat Ramen noodles, but it gets old after a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure we had Ramen noodles back in my minimum wage days, but the cr@p I was eating always went down better with a cold Busch (15 cents a bottle at the time).
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

You can join the National Guard and receive a $15,000 dollar bonus (split in two payments), $10,000 in the GI Bill, up to $27,000 in tuition assistance and the monthly Reserve pay…however they do ask for a 6-year contract plus 2-years in the IRR and there’s always that possibility of getting deployed for up to 18-months

Oh…Ramen Noodles and Tabasco Sauce!!
bandit.gif
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

Let's not forget living in a van down by the river to save money.
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

[ QUOTE ]

But at what point does the first officer becomes qualify to demand a high salary? at some airlines the upgrade time have being push back as much as seven years.

After 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 years of experiences as a first officer should you still get pay minimum wage because you are an apprentice? [ QUOTE ]


Many airlines will begin to compensate their first officers better at these years of service. Presumably they recognize that they will want their accumulated experience to serve as their captains soon and wish to retain their services.

If this is not the case with your airline...then you should be marketable for other higher paying jobs within the industry...corporate, freight, training, FAA, etc. Theymay not be lucrative careers, but they will pay a livable wage.
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

20k per year is livable. Especially if you are single. If you are married, you are going to need a spouse that has a job.

I made less than that in 1993 money when I first joined the navy. It isn't a glamourous life but it can be done. For our first anniversary,my ex(in probably the only sweet thing I remember) went all out and bought me a bucket of KFC and some Natural Light. (My all time favorite meal!)

The fact is, if you are choosing to be a pro pilot, you are accepting the low starting pay. Don't whine when you are eating ramen, driving a junker and sharing an apartment.
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

[ QUOTE ]
I know how you feel. I don't see how you can survive on that salry. My parents won't even let me pursue a career in aviation because the salary is too low. They want me to become a businessman or engineer because it pays more. I love flying and really wanted to be a professional pilot, but I'll have to settle for flight simming and flying the 172 around on weekends for a $100 hamburger.

[/ QUOTE ]


DUDE!!! Take it from someone who has a BS and MS in engineering. DO WHAT YOU LOVE!!! I did something "for the money" and I am miserable. I have always wanted to be a pilot and I am starting my training again. I know I won't be able to live with myself if I don't at least try. Good luck with whatever you do.

PS - Engineering is always a good backup
grin.gif
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

Please tell what is not smart about skipping the regionals.
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

yeahthat.gif


On the Engineer comment (I don't have the MS tho, just my own little company), and the misable part....
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

[ QUOTE ]
Please tell what is not smart about skipping the regionals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless your uncle owns a King Air that he's going to let you fly for him it's usually the quickest way to get experience. I was hard pressed enough as a CFI just to find multi-engine students, much less find any meaningful opportunities to fly the kind cabin class/turbine equipment that allows you to break into the corporate/charter world. When I left my flight school they had just raised the insurance minimums on their twins to levels that prevented me from instructing in the very planes that I had earned my certificates in, so I was at a dead end. Sure, I rode shotgun some twin cessna every once in a while, but I wasn't getting paid nor could I log that time. It was masturbation.

Mins just to sit in the right seat of the king air (not really even loggable time) at my local 135 outfit were somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 tt and 200 multi and I don't even think they paid you, not to mention the shoddy maintenance and other assorted BS you get to deal with at most 135 operators. By the time I was hired as a regional FO I was a long way from 200 multi unless I wanted to spend another 5 grand renting planes on my own. At the regionals you make more and can break in with less experience due to the quality of the training you recieve as a newhire. Your typical 135 joint has to have their arm twisted just to send you to school on a plane.


If first year regional FO pay doesn't mean an incerase in income to you (as low as it may be), then it's probably not a career move you should make. More power to you if you can make 25-30k as a CFI. It's also a bit shortsighted to obsess over first year pay....by the time you finish training you've only got about 10 months left at that pay level. Also, I hate to break it to you guys, but look at first year "probationary" pay at some of the majors right now and you might be a little bit disappointed....

The military is another great way to do it, but that's not for everybody, and the pitfalls of signing up just to build flight hours have been beaten to death.

Promoting "alternate career paths" is fine, just spare those of us who chose to go to the regionals from your insults. Common courtesy goes a long way.
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

dude, I was kidding.... :
sarcasm.gif
that's a nice part of the job, but it should not be the basis's of it...it should be to meet girls and tell them that YOU FLY THE BIG SHINY JETS

well said B767Driver
bandit.gif
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

[ QUOTE ]
dude, I was kidding.... :
sarcasm.gif
that's a nice part of the job, but it should not be the basis's of it...it should be to meet girls and tell them that YOU FLY THE BIG SHINY JETS

well said B767Driver
bandit.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

and as we learned earlier all you have to do is say you're a pilot and the girls start lining up.
sarcasm.gif
wink.gif
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

[ QUOTE ]
I can't. Money means nothing to me and I would rather do something that makes me happy, but it's important to my parents and they would be very disappointed if I decided to go with the flying career instead of something more "stable." I can still fly, just not as a career. Plus they're paying most of my college tuition, so I can't complain. It would be disrespectful to them .

[/ QUOTE ]

Excuse me?

Who's being disrespected here? You or your parents?

If your parents would be disappointed with you doing something you love, then they are showing the ultimate in disrespect to you.

It is YOUR life. YOU have to live it. YOU are the one who has to look yourself in the mirror every morning. YOU are the one who has to say to himself, I am sick of being like Peter from Office Space and dreading going to the office every day and hating every minute I'm there.

If your parents are paying for the degree, get the engineering degree or whatever they're paying for. Ain't no reason you can't use that, get a job with that, CFI on the side, build your time and save your money, and then do what you want to do.

It is your life. You have to live it the way you want. And your parents won't be the ones thinking on your deathbed, what if.
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

If I were you I would just hold out for United and skip the whole CFI and regionals thing.
 
Re: how can you possibly live on a pilot\'s starting salary??????

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know how you feel. I don't see how you can survive on that salry. My parents won't even let me pursue a career in aviation because the salary is too low. They want me to become a businessman or engineer because it pays more. I love flying and really wanted to be a professional pilot, but I'll have to settle for flight simming and flying the 172 around on weekends for a $100 hamburger.

[/ QUOTE ]


DUDE!!! Take it from someone who has a BS and MS in engineering. DO WHAT YOU LOVE!!! I did something "for the money" and I am miserable. I have always wanted to be a pilot and I am starting my training again. I know I won't be able to live with myself if I don't at least try. Good luck with whatever you do.

PS - Engineering is always a good backup
grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]Ditto! I should have done the same thing... civil engineering isn't a degree that's "in the money" anymore unless you want to work 24/7 (seriously!)...would rather be a vet or doing something with aminals!
grin.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top