PCL hires 8 of 11 from ATP

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Honestly, I didn't feel like looking up where ATP's flordia branch is located, so I just said Vero because I hear it a lot on the board. I'm also, admittedly, grouping the pilot mills together.

It's cool they have that "real world x/c" deal - that's a great idea, but I still don't think you learn enough different aspects of flying, especially if you don't CFI (which this was orignally about... I think) to be an effective jet pilot.

So Bob, would you, with your current experience, recommend someone go to an accelerated program, do a bridge program (not CFI), and get into a jet asap? And do you think that person would make an effective crewmember in a jet? - I'm not bashing, I'm truly curious.

(sorry, horrid spelling and punctuation - I've been working too hard.)
 
777forever said:
I agree with most of the things you have said. But someone earning their private pilots license is much different than a type rating for lets say a CRJ! Airlines are training a pilot that is part of a crew that is responsible for the lives of many on every flight! That pilot BETTER be ready to fly after training don't you think? Would I trust a new private pilot to take a flight with one of my loved ones right after his checkride? Nope, would I have them fly on a ExpressJet flight with a new 700hr pilot as the FO? Yes!
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You do know that people can pass ground school and still be fired for lack of knowledge or poor skills,etc. in their probational year. Couple of weeks ago someone post about a chick at their airline that had to have 600+ hours of IOE time. 600 hrs.

Also I recently remember reading a post from a recent new hire flying the CRJ for XXX that he heard that a 2-3 guys from his class didn't pass IOE and were asked to leave.

So there you have it...passing ground school doesn't mean that you're a god! As you can still be brough back to earth with a pink slip!
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
Couple of weeks ago someone post about a chick at their airline that had to have 600+ hours of IOE time. 600 hrs.
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do you have a link? 600 hours would equate to approximately the entire first year worth of flying. I doubt it. Not saying "you're wrong", but I'm pretty skeptical :).
 
Wheels, I think it might have been at Dugie8's airline that the person needed a lot of IOE. I remember reading that as well.

Okay, my bottom line: the ATP CRJ program is another way for a flight school to make a buck. Period. Those guys in my class? Instructors with over 700TT and 100ME. Me? I got hired with a bit more TT and a bit more ME. Same with all the other guys in my class. So, they coulda saved the thousands of dollars, instructed for a couple of months and still gotten the job. To me, I don't think a few seniority numbers (hell, I've already moved up 30 spots and I've only been here 6 months) and a couple of extra months on reserve isn't worth $6-7K. Got a lot of respect for ya Bob, but the seniority number thing, to me, is a marketing gimmick to get people to hand over their cash.

And they guys that got hired at PCL through the ATP program, depending on their hours, might still have a hard time getting on with other regionals. Like Don pointed out, Skywest is a little iffy on the safety pilot stuff, Colgan doesn't give a rat's if you had an RJ class since they don't fly them, Eagle's been getting stingy from what I've heard from people applying, but XJT is a possibility.

Max, that might have been me as the "recent CRJ new hire." We had about 4 guys wash out of the sims and 1 more asked to leave IOE. That's actually about average with a class the size of ours. Everyone passed ground school, it was the flying that knocked 'em out.
 
so the general consensus seems to be that whenever somebody finishes flight school and gets all of their ratings, they have the necessary qualifications to gain experience dealing with dificult situations while instructing and should only do this while instructing. couldnt this same experience potentially be attained while flying jets from the right seat? i suppose its kind of a weeding out process though. some instructors may get killed if they mess up bad enough with less loss of innocent life, and others may quit if they dont like dealing with the different hassles associated with the work. but if the low time guy is flying a jet with a very experienced guy, wouldnt the sum total expereince level better be able to handle difficult situations that arise and more relevant experience be gained?? but i guess this philosophy would be PFJ. :banghead: and the line needs to be drawn somewhere (seems like its generally 600-1000 hours).

PKR
 
pkrgod said:
but if the low time guy is flying a jet with a very experienced guy, wouldnt the sum total expereince level better be able to handle difficult situations that arise and more relevant experience be gained??
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Well, the really new guy *may* add to the total level of experience in the cockpit but it is just as more likely that the lack of experience dealing with things would detract from the captain's ability to deal with problems. Also, how is the brand new pilot ever going to gain more experience when he never has to make a hard decision because there is a senior captain sitting next to him making all the decisions for him?
 
pkrgod said:
couldnt this same experience potentially be attained while flying jets from the right seat?
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Wouldn't it be nice to do an approach to OVC002 at night before you do it in an airliner?

pkrgod said:
some instructors may get killed if they mess up bad enough with less loss of innocent life
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It's not as much about not getting killed as it is training your student to fly in a way that they don't kill themselves and other people later. You aren't just a pilot sitting there trying to survive, you're an instructing pilot.


One skill that CFIs certainly improve on, and I never considered this before I started using my CFI certificate, is CRM.
- Flying with different people
- and dealing with all their different idiosyncrasies
- while still accomplishing the mission of educating and doing it safely
- while making it enjoyable
probably makes a person a better person to fly with in a crew environment.
 
Ok, just got my war gear on, here we go again!

Wouldn't it be nice to do an approach to OVC002 at night before you do it in an airliner?
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Do you not have to prove you r capable of doing this in the sim? In fact, do you not do this in the sim with one engine?

Once again I completely support instructing and I will become an instructor! But some of my fellow pilots are killing this whole experience thing! Apparently those low-time pilots in the airlines right now are doing fine on those approaches to OVC002 at night because of have not heard about any crashes caused because of their "in-experience" We are going through one of the safest periods in U.S. Airline history right now and programs like ATP have been producing quality pilots for years! Now my fellow pilots, tell me how the "in-experience" is hurting the industry? Certainly not safety! Is it our pocketbooks its hurting? Surely the regional pilots who help negiotiate the next labor contract for XXX airline will be the senior pilots at that airline not the "inexperienced" new-hires! So the whole 600hr pilot will take less money than 1500hr pilot is irrelevent b/c I dont believe they have a say!

Okay, my bottom line: the ATP CRJ program is another way for a flight school to make a buck. Period. Those guys in my class? Instructors with over 700TT and 100ME. Me? I got hired with a bit more TT and a bit more ME. Same with all the other guys in my class. So, they coulda saved the thousands of dollars, instructed for a couple of months and still gotten the job. To me, I don't think a few seniority numbers (hell, I've already moved up 30 spots and I've only been here 6 months) and a couple of extra months on reserve isn't worth $6-7K. Got a lot of respect for ya Bob, but the seniority number thing, to me, is a marketing gimmick to get people to hand over their cash.
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You make a good point and I respect your opinion b/c reading your posts saved me from wasting money on PACE! As far as the CRJ program, like Bob said earlier it is each person's individual characteristics such as attitude, knowledge, learning ability, and overall flight skill that truely defines what type of success they can have and how fast they can advance in this field (as far as learning mind I say before I cause a riot lol). Face it, some people pick things up more slowly than other people! Im not planning on doing this CRJ program but if I was someone who struggled picking up new things and this CRJ course would help me get through ground school, sim, and IOE, I think the $7k is well worth not being fired and potentially derailing my career! Oh, and do you know why those in your class failed out? Was it work ethic related? Or do they just not have the flying ability required to be an airline pilot? Is it the end of the road from them or do you think their problems can be corrected?

Finally, being a senior in college my past experience has made me realize why major airlines require college degrees! Balancing flying, studying for check rides, stage checks, and written exams while taking college courses like finanicial accounting, business law, physics, calculus and you get my point, I feel like I am in my forth year of ground school!:insane: Life will be great in May when I can focus on one thing!
 
777forever said:
Do you not have to prove you r capable of doing this in the sim? In fact, do you not do this in the sim with one engine?
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Sure, now ask me how much the sim handles like the real airplane.....Oh yeah, if you crash in the sim, you don't die, either.

Seriously, guys. Do you hear of doctors "building time" in the emergency room with someone watching over their shoulders? No. When you set foot in an airliner, you are no longer building time, you're there. If you look at it as a time building experience, you're becoming a burden on the captain. Why are 172s and Seminoles good places to learn? Because they're slow. Things happen at a slower rate, you have more time to think and more time to react. When I eventually upgrade to CA, I'd rather not have the first time my FO has shot an approach to minimums in a real live airplane be with me next to him. Is he gonna freeze? Is he gonna try to rush through things? Am I gonna have to take the controls?

This is the kind of experience we're talking about, not "I have XXXX total time, hire me." Total hours do not necessarily make a qualified pilot. That being said, I don't think bridge programs can make a qualified pilot either. You know what does? Flying the damn airplane. Going out there, flying in the ATC system, flying in different types of WX, dealing with diverts, etc. BTW, you don't get that in the sim, either. You're lucky to get above 10K in a sim session. They kinda expect you to already know this stuff when you get there.

Once again I completely support instructing and I will become an instructor! But some of my fellow pilots are killing this whole experience thing! Apparently those low-time pilots in the airlines right now are doing fine on those approaches to OVC002 at night because of have not heard about any crashes caused because of their "in-experience" We are going through one of the safest periods in U.S. Airline history right now and programs like ATP have been producing quality pilots for years! Now my fellow pilots, tell me how the "in-experience" is hurting the industry? Certainly not safety! Is it our pocketbooks its hurting?
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Prove to me the CA wasn't flying. Prove to me the CA didn't have to guide the guy all the way down. At some airlines, if you don't have XXX number of hours in the plane, you CAN'T fly that approach. Once again, even as a passenger, I don't want the guy at the controls to be saying "Well, I've never really done this, but I'll give it a shot." It's not all about landing at mins, either. It has to do with decision making skills. Do we divert? Should we go to the left or right of that build up? If we do divert, where's a good place to go? Is the runway long enough there? Are we gonna be able to get gas there? These are things you learn flying in the system. They shouldn't be things you learn from a CA on the line. What if (god forbid) your captain becomes incapacitated? If you've never done that stuff, you're gonna have a mighty tough road ahead.

Surely the regional pilots who help negiotiate the next labor contract for XXX airline will be the senior pilots at that airline not the "inexperienced" new-hires! So the whole 600hr pilot will take less money than 1500hr pilot is irrelevent b/c I dont believe they have a say!
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They have a say since they sent their resume in saying "I'm willing to work for this low amount." Ask Mesa. They were fighting for a good contract, but management said "Hey, we've got these 300 hour guys that are willing to work for peanuts. If you guys won't, they will.......at Freedom Airlines." The 1500 hour pilot has more options, so he can bypass that job. The 600 hour guy saying "I just wanna fly an RJ" will take the first thing that comes along because he has to....or he has to stick to instructing. Me? I chose to instruct a while longer so I could be choosy.


Face it, some people pick things up more slowly than other people!
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Bottom line, and a hard truth. If they can't pass 121 ground school without a $7K primer, they don't belong. Period. If that's their case, then upgrade is really gonna suck. ATP doesn't have a program for that, and the airline probably wouldn't give them time off to pay to go to it if they did.

Oh, and do you know why those in your class failed out? Was it work ethic related? Or do they just not have the flying ability required to be an airline pilot? Is it the end of the road from them or do you think their problems can be corrected?
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Not the end of the road at all. A couple of them went back to their 135 jobs, one went back to instructing. The other guy, I don't know. He didn't have his CFIs or a whole lot of hours. It definately wasn't work ethic, though. The training program does set you up to succeed. You get 10 sim sessions, and you more or less practice everything those 10 sessions (which is a pretty high number of sims compared to some other airlines). It's some of the people that DID pass training that scare me. I've heards some stories from some of the CAs I fly with that leave me shaking my head....

On another note, I heard one of the guys from my class lost his medical when he went to get it renewed. Now he's fighting to get it back. Just another reminder that you never know when the rug is gonna get yanked.
 
That's somebody who has been through med school already. You can't get a private doctors license like you can with being a pilot and go out and, "play doctor on the weekends."
 
pkrgod said:
...couldnt this same experience potentially be attained while flying jets from the right seat?
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Airline pilots exist for one thing, to get passengers safely from point A to point B. It is NOT where new pilots should go to LEARN how to do it. They should be a full functioning member of a crew, not a "student" of the Captain.
pkrgod said:
...if the low time guy is flying a jet with a very experienced guy, wouldn't the sum total experience level better be able to handle difficult situations that arise and more relevant experience be gained??
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No, the sum total of experience is LESS and the warm body in the right seat can detract from the capabilities of the experienced pilot.

777forever said:
...some people pick things up more slowly than other people!...but if I was someone who struggled picking up new things and this CRJ course would help me get through ground school, sim, and IOE.
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These are the exact people that you do not want there in the first place. Do you think paying passengers want someone flying their plane that is "struggling to pick up new things" and "pick things up slowly?" And would you as a Captain want to be paired with a struggling FO?

777forever said:
Apparently those low-time pilots in the airlines right now are doing fine on those approaches to OVC002 at night
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That's because autopilots are pretty reliable (or should I say relied upon?)
 
NJA just hit the nail right on the head. There's a reason you need 1,200 hours to haul freight in a plane that doesn't have an autopilot through all kinds of crappy weather.
 
These are the exact people that you do not want there in the first place. Do you think paying passengers want someone flying their plane that is "struggling to pick up new things" and "pick things up slowly?" And would you as a Captain want to be paired with a struggling FO?
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Uh..no, thats why there is IOE right? If they dont catch up, are they not handed a pink slip? If they get thru IOE and struggle through out the first year are they not let go? Isn't this why it is a probation period? This is why air travel is safe! Isn't this why regionals pay 19k during this time and major airlines pay 30k? Just because a pilot struggles learning a new plane whether it be GS, sim or IOE should they have their career shut down because they didnt pick it up as quickly? NO. Moreover, would I as a captain want to be paired with a struggling FO? Yes in fact I would. Being a captain I must be one heck of a seasoned and proficient pilot. I would do anything to help that struggling FO accomplish his dreams and keep him from failing. I would give him tips, my phone number to keep me updated on his experiences, anything to help someone who loves the job as much as I do!

jtrain609 said:
Ohhh......you're up in Durrant eh? Doing the aviation program up there?
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Yup im up here in ole Doorant lol! im doing the aviation management degree. Im getting my Instument/Commercial done this semester, getting my Multi with ATP in Dec, and CFIs with ATP in June or July. This forum has a whole lot of information! The Bejiing CFI gig looks good for a 21 yr CFI which I will be next summer!

Ok, I'm going to make a new industry standard, now one is experienced enough to fly an airline with passengers until you have 2500TT/500 multi. I mean gosh, we need to practice dodging thunderstorms, flying approaches down to minimums and all that other important stuff before we step into the cockpit of and airpline with an experienced captain and passengers on board! I think most of us are now all low-time pilots!

ottom line, and a hard truth. If they can't pass 121 ground school without a $7K primer, they don't belong. Period.
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Im sorry but I respectly disagree. If Joe Bob takes the CRJ course and that course helped him become as safe and as proficient an airline pilot you and other regional airlines pilots in this forum, more power to them! They have the right to spend the money! In high school I could only manage a 940 SAT without a prepcourse. With a prepcourse I got a 1100. Can others get a 1100 or more without a prepcourse? Absolutely! Does that mean I am not smart and do not deserve to go to a college with a minimum acceptance score of 1050? Absolutely not! I took the prepcourse, worked my tail off, and got a better score! Same scenario.

I know the sims are not real life but come on people, they are darn near close! I was in a 777 sim at their DFW training center and my goodness those thing are amazing pieces of technology! And how many of those multiple failures they torture you with in the sim are realistically going to happy in real life all at the same time? There is a time and a place to be a rookie for everything! Newly minted instructor with their first student, Doctor doing their first surgery, NFL player playing their first game, experience can only take you so far.

Once again, I am not advocating 300 hr pilots, just voicing my opinion that some of you guys are overkilling experience. The main reason experience requirements was so high for you older pilots? Because there was a surplus amount of pilots! They had to cut some of you off! Now with the mass retirement of the baby boomer pilots starting to begin, regionals are scrambling to pick up pilots because they are bleeding Captains! Am I wrong? I mean good lord UPS is paying 2nd year FOs $149 an hr! (http://airlinepilotcentral.com/reso...ces/southwest,_ups_raise_bar_20060902134.html)
We all need to start looking at the positive side of this career we all love! Pay increases, Airline Pilots rank #12 on forbes list of highest paying jobs, and goodness people I am goin to throw a fit if people keep complaining about first year pay as if they are getting paid 19k every year at the regional. Most major airline first year pay is only 10k to 15k more! Overall this is a lucrative career that pays a lot of money. If we all stick together, low-time and high-time pilots we can get everything we want out of this profession! Ok my rant is over, for now. Back to flightsim lol.
 
A wise old salt I know, back in the ATR days, said "I have never met an FO that was worth his weight in gas"

I think these were the guys he was talking about.


777- You said earlier that a guy with 2000 tt and 135 experience was just as good of an FO as one of these 300 hr pilot mill products.

Look at yourself as a future captain (if you even meet ATP mins) who do you want next to yo when the FMS and Autopilot craps the bed in the northeast when it is 010OVC? Someone who has never flown in the northeast, or someone that has been there done that, but at night on his own?
 
So what you're saying is that you're a flight sim geek with a private pilots license that is finishing an aviation degree at a halfway ok school and you're lecturing a flight instructor, a freight dawg, a regional pilot and a NetJets captain about how this all works? Son, you've got a few things to learn. Majoring in english and you want to lecture on grammar? Great! Maybe philosophy and you want to talk about descrates? Perfect! But you want to argue the finer points of doing something that you have not been trained to do yet with a bunch of professionals that have already been where you're sitting, and used to think what you do?

I dunno bro it just doesn't make much sense. And yeah that China gig is pretty decent. I got ML from your school (he instructed there) his MEI a few months ago and he's out there right now. He was one hell of a good pilot, better than me hands down in fact. And I worked with another kid that went to your school. Their best atributes?

They were humble and they knew what they didn't know.
 
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