PCL hires 8 of 11 from ATP
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DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"But you bring up an excellent point. "It was pretty much the exact same thing..." that says something to the training they received and it probably made them feel real comfortable in ground school... therein lies the advantage or value of the program"
Fact remains, Kell said they said they wished they had saved their money. I take that to mean they wished they hadn't spent the money on the RJ transition. Had they felt there was value in "feeling real comfortable in ground school", I'm sure they wouldn't have made different comments to Kell than what they did. Maybe they would have made comments like, "I really am glad I did the RJ transition course, it made me feel so much better in ground school". Alas, that's not what they said, according to Kell.
"Don't know about the rest, but I'm pretty sure SkyWest isn't hiring any 400hr wonderboys"
They actually do have an agreement to hire at 850 total (I think), however, it's been said by our local Skywest check airman/sometimes Skywest pilot interviewer/hopefully soon to be new hire at Alaska Air, that Skywest doesn't count safety pilot multi PIC towards their multi PIC mins.
Fact remains, Kell said they said they wished they had saved their money. I take that to mean they wished they hadn't spent the money on the RJ transition. Had they felt there was value in "feeling real comfortable in ground school", I'm sure they wouldn't have made different comments to Kell than what they did. Maybe they would have made comments like, "I really am glad I did the RJ transition course, it made me feel so much better in ground school". Alas, that's not what they said, according to Kell.
"Don't know about the rest, but I'm pretty sure SkyWest isn't hiring any 400hr wonderboys"
They actually do have an agreement to hire at 850 total (I think), however, it's been said by our local Skywest check airman/sometimes Skywest pilot interviewer/hopefully soon to be new hire at Alaska Air, that Skywest doesn't count safety pilot multi PIC towards their multi PIC mins.
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
I wonder if this guy was in Kell's class?
http://www2.atpflightschool.com/Testimonials/default.lasso? no=24&returnURL=http%3A//www.atpflightschool.com/&returnPageName=Previous%20Page
Fact is... you're right. Kell said they wished they had saved their money. How many times have you heard that from people from all walks of life in all different situations? ie: "I wish I would have saved my money and not gone to college since I don't do anything remotely similiar to what I went to college for?"
It's a valid argument and invalid at the same time... College prepares us for so much more in life than just drooling on the desk in History 101. My money is on the fact that these guys got something out of the course... knowledge, familiarization, an understanding of "how to study" for 121 GS, etc... I mean, c'mon, if you had just attended a fast paced ground school program prior to attending the real thing for your job... you'd think that stuff was pretty easy wouldn't you? Was it easy because they came in prepared, even subconsciously, having already taken the course... or was it just plain easy for them? You'll here of LOTS of guys and gals on here say that GS kicked their butts. So you probably know where my thoughts on that subject are.
The other thing that I think they got out of the deal that wasn't communicated to Kell was the fact that they were sitting in the same class as Kell. How much is an interview gained 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, etc. earlier than they would have gotten it on their own? Ask that question to the guys at CAL and AA who flowed back to XJT and Eagle... Ask the guys that lost their Captain slots and became FO's again after 9/11, ask the guys that got furloughed for a year to five years... Now ask the guys that were in the new hire classes just above them who missed the cut for flow back, who missed the cut for a bust back down to FO, who missed the cut for furlough, etc.
Yes, it's 850. However... that's still "low timer" in your book right Don? That's what I was referring too. There seems to be a general shift from the naysayers on here thinking that everyone coming out of ATP is a 500 hour wonder. While it's true guys are getting hired at 500 hours... I don't think it's the majority.
Also, According to the Letter Of Understanding that SkyWest gave to ATP "SkyWest Airlines recognizes the overall experience and training that pilots are able to receive through Airline Transport Professionals programmed instruction." Hmmm... so they do know about the safety pilot time.... and they recognize it as part of the training. Regardless... I think there's a misconception that all of your 140 hours of Multi-time during the ACPP is safety pilot time... when the fact is that only 35 hours of it is. So, even with 35 of SP time in your logbook... ACPP grads still meet the 100hr Multi Mins for SkyWest interview purposes...
Bob
Vladimir Lenin
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<edited by SteveC>
LoadMasterC141
Well-Known Member
Goodness me. How did you ever make it this far?
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Bob Bob Bob...I never said 850 was low time....
I was simply correcting the guy who made the 400 hour comment and I know Skywest won't hire that low.
As for safety pilot multi, SkyWestChris, a Skywest interviewer, has said at this very forum they don't count that time towards the 100 hour min. Fact is, if you get 140 multi at ATP and only 35 in safety pilot multi, you'll meet the mins.
I was simply correcting the guy who made the 400 hour comment and I know Skywest won't hire that low.
As for safety pilot multi, SkyWestChris, a Skywest interviewer, has said at this very forum they don't count that time towards the 100 hour min. Fact is, if you get 140 multi at ATP and only 35 in safety pilot multi, you'll meet the mins.
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Don Don Don... the 850 remark was simply in reference to your other conversations in other forums regarding anyone under "1000" hours. Sorry for the miscommunication.
Have a great day!
Bob
PS: In Laredo on an overnight... No fun... Drug Cartels still trying to take over Nuevo Laredo. They had recently hired a new Sheriff and he was dead within 1.5 hours! No Joke. The US pulled over another Sherriff from across the border and found over a quarter Mil. in his trunk. Not recommended to go across to border here... so... not much else to do... so... had lot's of time to spend here on JC last night! My room faces the river/border... so here I am with the curtains closed... wondering if the rooms are bullet proof.
Have a great day!
Bob
PS: In Laredo on an overnight... No fun... Drug Cartels still trying to take over Nuevo Laredo. They had recently hired a new Sheriff and he was dead within 1.5 hours! No Joke. The US pulled over another Sherriff from across the border and found over a quarter Mil. in his trunk. Not recommended to go across to border here... so... not much else to do... so... had lot's of time to spend here on JC last night! My room faces the river/border... so here I am with the curtains closed... wondering if the rooms are bullet proof.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
I guess that all depends on the type of bullet. Impact resistant, certainly, to an extent.
Thats pretty messed up though.
Thats pretty messed up though.
WestIndian425
Well-Known Member
Jeez! More power to you, sir!Don Don Don... the 850 remark was simply in reference to your other conversations in other forums regarding anyone under "1000" hours. Sorry for the miscommunication.
Have a great day!
Bob
PS: In Laredo on an overnight... No fun... Drug Cartels still trying to take over Nuevo Laredo. They had recently hired a new Sheriff and he was dead within 1.5 hours! No Joke. The US pulled over another Sherriff from across the border and found over a quarter Mil. in his trunk. Not recommended to go across to border here... so... not much else to do... so... had lot's of time to spend here on JC last night! My room faces the river/border... so here I am with the curtains closed... wondering if the rooms are bullet proof.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
Don Don Don... the 850 remark was simply in reference to your other conversations in other forums regarding anyone under "1000" hours. Sorry for the miscommunication.
Have a great day!
Bob
PS: In Laredo on an overnight... No fun... Drug Cartels still trying to take over Nuevo Laredo. They had recently hired a new Sheriff and he was dead within 1.5 hours! No Joke. The US pulled over another Sherriff from across the border and found over a quarter Mil. in his trunk. Not recommended to go across to border here... so... not much else to do... so... had lot's of time to spend here on JC last night! My room faces the river/border... so here I am with the curtains closed... wondering if the rooms are bullet proof.
Bob
If you are ever in LRD on a weekend overnite drop me a PM, I'll show you are Nueva Laredo, it ain't that bad over there.
FO_SHIZZLE
Well-Known Member
Your right of course... I can't think of anybody else besides SkyWest, Colgan, Eagle, PSA, and XJT who'd hire them.
Bob
Actually I think they would have a very tough time getting hired by one of these carriers. You couple the fact that they washed out of a 121 training environment and also have less than 1000hrs, I doubt any respectable regional would touch them until they have done some additional flying/training.
I'm not knocking these guys, PCL, or ATP (I really don't know much about them), but I have seen guys with alot more time and experience wash out of 121 programs and had a hell of a time getting back from it, some have yet to do so.
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
Dugie, I'll take you up on that. We stayed at a really nice hotel... and I was wanting to go across, but the hotel van driver, the desk staff, and the concierge were all talking us out of it...
Bob
Trip7
Well-Known Member
I agree with Capt Bob, times have changed in the way airlines hire and pilots are trained and some of our more experienced pilots are having a hard time dealing with that fact. I believe flight schools like ATP provide a more economical and efficient way of training. It seems like the older pilots want the new generation to suffer through long years of training and 135 gigs before we finally get the "experience" required to fly a jet! I don't support PFT programs which ATP is not and I do plan on becoming an instructor, but I do believe a well-qualifed and safe pilot with total time under 1000 hrs. can be put into the right seat of a regional jet. Afterall, planes aren't falling out of the sky are they? BTW why is everyone complaining about regional pays and always mentioning FIRST YEAR pay? Its as if you will be making 20K the time you spend at the regional. Just think of yourself as a highly paid flight-instructor lol. Finally, someone said earlier with and 80K loan you will pay til the day you die, well, pretty sure most loans you only have 20 years to pay it back and how much the the average airline pilot make over their career? I think I see the light at the end of the tunnel!
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I want you to save all of that and then come back after you've been instructing for 6 months and say the same thing with a straight face.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"times have changed in the way airlines hire and pilots are trained"
So, what has changed? What does ATP do that is revolutionary? Seminoles, Dutchesses, 172's, low time CFI's making $1000/mo ($800 if you take the housing) two people logging PIC multi at the same time? I've never done that, by the way, so maybe that's the secret. One guy under the hood as PIC while one is PIC safety pilot....that's the key to great training.
Maybe it's the great ground school program ATP has? All those tough ground school classes you have to take?
Really, I don't see what's all that different. Bob?
"It seems like the older pilots want the new generation to suffer through long years of training and 135 gigs before we finally get the "experience" required to fly a jet!"
Why do you think it's suffering? I had a great time and learned a lot with my 135 gig. You'd walk away a much better pilot, in the end. Of course, if you just wanna fly jets, that isn't important.
"but I do believe a well-qualifed and safe pilot with total time under 1000 hrs. can be put into the right seat of a regional jet"
How about 250-300 hours with no CFI experience?
So, what has changed? What does ATP do that is revolutionary? Seminoles, Dutchesses, 172's, low time CFI's making $1000/mo ($800 if you take the housing) two people logging PIC multi at the same time? I've never done that, by the way, so maybe that's the secret. One guy under the hood as PIC while one is PIC safety pilot....that's the key to great training.
Maybe it's the great ground school program ATP has? All those tough ground school classes you have to take?
Really, I don't see what's all that different. Bob?
"It seems like the older pilots want the new generation to suffer through long years of training and 135 gigs before we finally get the "experience" required to fly a jet!"
Why do you think it's suffering? I had a great time and learned a lot with my 135 gig. You'd walk away a much better pilot, in the end. Of course, if you just wanna fly jets, that isn't important.
"but I do believe a well-qualifed and safe pilot with total time under 1000 hrs. can be put into the right seat of a regional jet"
How about 250-300 hours with no CFI experience?
Time for me to pull up one of my old posts. Haven't posted this in probably six months, so it's due:
There is also some misunderstanding about why some of the fast track programs are sometimes not well thought of in the experienced guys views. It is not about "paying dues" simply for the purpose of paying dues. Few people would begrudge someone finding better, smarter, and faster ways to do something. It is not about "I had to do it the hard way, so you do too." The problem with the fast track programs is not that it is easier than the old way. The problem is that there is something missing when a person does not do all of that flying - and that something is "experience".
Experience comes from being in literally hundreds and thousands of different situations and learning from both the good and bad things that happen.
"Experience" is why the freight dog is often highly regarded. Their situations (often single pilot, night, IFR, in all weather) require them to gain lots of street smarts (air smarts?) in a relatively short amount of time. 500 to 1000 hours of 135 freight time gets a person a ton of experience and (hopefully) skills and tricks of the trade that are needed in all types of flying, including the airlines.
Experience comes from spending time in an airplane, and there is no short cut. Even the guys that spend 1000 hours as CFI are gaining valuable experience, even though they often don't realize it. Some of the experience is in how to work with other people, what different personalities respond to (or not), and how miscommunication happens both inside the cockpit and over the radio. Some of it has to do with equipment and failures and learning how you react when bad crap happens. CFI's even get experience while they are just droning around the pattern hour after hour after hour. They experience what happens when the Net Jets Citation X comes honking into the area, and how to coordinate with different speed traffic. They get a (vicarious) feel for jet and turboprop speeds and the need to be on the ball and ahead of the aircraft. They learn to "feel" what the aircraft is doing through the seat of their pants and the noises that they hear. They learn which aircraft can slow down and join the flow better than others. They experience close calls with other aircraft and learn techniques for spotting and anticipating traffic. Literally hundreds of things are learned through experience, and all of those things make for a better pilot.
Don't misunderstand me. There are crappy high time pilots as well as low time. All things being equal, though, an experienced top notch pilot is more of an asset in the cockpit than an inexperienced top notch pilot. An experienced so-so pilot is more of an asset in the cockpit than his inexperienced counterpart. And in my opinion (here is the controversial part) an experienced so-so pilot is usually more of an asset than an inexperienced top gun when the crap hits the fan, simply because he has been there, done that.
The 250 or 500 hour guys may have the training and the book smarts and the skill sets to pass the oral and the check ride. That does not mean they have the skills to be a true asset in the cockpit, especially when there is a problem.
The low time guy is not a bad person for wanting to get to the jet as soon as he can. The high time guys don't dislike the low timers because they are there, either. In fact they really don't dislike the low timers at all. What the high time guys don't like is that they may have to rely on someone in the right seat who may or may not have the "right stuff" when the time comes that it is really needed. Then on top of that is all of the little things that an experienced copilot can bring to the cockpit to make life easier for the PIC. One small example - an experienced copilot working the radios on his non-flying leg probably has a ton of experience in working with ATC. He understands what ATC needs in different situations, and how to leverage what ATC needs against what the pilots want and can make a request that wins for both. The experienced copilot knows that what works in Chicago Approach's airspace does not work in New York's, and why. And all of those things help make the PIC's life just a little bit easier.
WestIndian425
Well-Known Member
Dude, you pulled one out of the archives? LOL!
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Don't see what can happen as a CFI that will change my mind but we'll see
I am not talking about that low of time, I believe 600-700/150-300 hr range is enough experience.
completely agree, but is the freight dog cockpit environment and airline pilot environment the same? Nope, while I think experience from being a freight dog brings you superior flying skills, some of the skills, (im not saying all) learned flying single-pilot IFR does not transfer over to the airline cockpit.
Finally, if you pass the ground school and sim check ride, do you guys think that pilot who just PASSED is not experienced enough and ready for the cockpit? After all I've heard about how tough ground schools and sim rides are, if you pass it seems to me your experience was good enough. In the sim dont they pile on a rediculous amount of failures that make real-life emergencies a piece of cake? Like "the bird hitting the fan"? The airlines would not dare put an unsafe and unprepared pilot in the sky would they?
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