New pilots learning on glass.. Problem down the road?

[FlyChicaga]

Matt, I agree that people should still learn on round dials. I'm a big supporter of that. However, after you learn how to fly it and the pitfalls associated with it, I still feel that glass makes you safer, especially from an SA stand point.

BTW, does the ERJ have anything that will let you know when the heading is off by X amount between the two displays? We get the annoying "EFIS COMP MON" all the time on the ground due to magnetic anomalies. All we have to do is flip the switch and set it with ye ole mag compass.

First, yes, I agree that glass is more safe due to increased situational awareness. But I think we also agree that for new pilots in training, glass is detrimental to developing situational awareness in the first place.

Secondly, the ERJ we do have a heading miscompare, with an amber HDG annunciation when each AHRS heading reference is more than six degrees off. However, in our case, both separate AHRS units swayed on heading by the same amount. We have no idea why, but it fixed itself after some coaxing in the air. The interesting part was our MFDs, since they move with AHRS heading. We were flying northwest, yet the MFD showed us flying south I believe. Looking at the MFD for reference of position was messing us up more than looking out the window!

 

[Dugie8]

It is the 21st century ya'll, lets not be the old crotchety fella on the porch preaching about "Back in my day...." Flying is flying, glass doesn't make you any more safe or dangerous, your own attitude towards safety does that.

As the technology improves, glass cockpits will be the norm, best to start training on them now and have that learning curve conquered.

 

[jtrain609]

It is the 21st century ya'll, lets not be the old crotchety fella on the porch preaching about "Back in my day...." Flying is flying, glass doesn't make you any more safe or dangerous, your own attitude towards safety does that.

As the technology improves, glass cockpits will be the norm, best to start training on them now and have that learning curve conquered.

I thought you flew a DC-8? Do you guys even have an RNAV unit in that thing?

 

[Bandit_Driver]

I'll have to agree with the others that posted that the Steam Guages should be taught first. They provide an excellent foundation. I feel sorry for those guys that only learn glass then go job hunting in the Fr8 world. As we all know Fr8 is the last place technology will creep into.

I was taught on the basic six and flew that for a number of years before going to the airlines and learning glass. Then I went back to the freight world and steam guages. Going from Glass back to stream was a lot harder than going from steam to glass.

IMHO Those who learned on steam will have no problem going to glass. I can see someone having a hard time going from a glass only background having a hard time switching over to a job with only steam guages, espcially single pilot IFR.
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I also believe that all Private pilots need to learn how to fly LOOKING OUT THE WINDOW.

FlyChicaga, I had a similar AHRS problem in the SAAB a couple of years ago. Just about just prior rotation we hit a RCL and it created a wicked shimmy and both AHRS units went nuts. Both EADI's rolled inverted and warning flags appeared. Thankfully, it was VFR and we got vectored back around.

 

[NJA_Capt]

FlyChicaga, I had a similar AHRS problem in the SAAB a couple of years ago. Just about just prior rotation we hit a RCL and it created a wicked shimmy and both AHRS units went nuts. Both EADI's rolled inverted and warning flags appeared. Thankfully, it was VFR and we got vectored back around.

Maybe this should be in the "you're the Capt thread...but here it is. IMC takeoff at JFK and lose 5...yes five of 6 compasses. We have with dual IRS (laseref IV), displayed on 4 MFDs, plus a steam gage HSI and a wet compass. After takeoff, ATC queried our heading. The HSIs had swung almost 90 degrees, with no flags and no miscompares. As far as the computers were concerned there were no problems because they all agreed. But, they agreed wrong....including the standby HSI (steam). The only reliable compass we had was "THE compass." Ever fly timed turns in a jet IMC in NY airspace?

This is exactly where "old school" flying comes into play. You may not be OK just because nothing is red or flashing. Sure Cessna says that the G1000 has next to 0 probability of failure, but I wish I had a dollar for everything Cessna told us "can't happen" but DID.

 

[Beers]

Ok, I can understand those points of view for sure... If you are getting into flying to be a freight dog then without a doubt I agree older airplanes are the way to go. I am yet to meet a student that told me on day one that he wants to fly old airplanes at night though. From what I have seen at my flight school, the two types of students out there are either the future airline pilot, or the guy who has a good job and always wanted to learn how to fly and is at a point in life where they can try it now.

Even when I was a flight instructor I didn't think I would be flying cargo, at least not until after about a year and I was exploring my options. Everyone wanted to go to the regionals so that is what was in my head. You just never know what opportunities will come up and what you will end up flying. For a person who is diehard on the airlines, then yeah, I doubt they will come across steam gauges much in their flying career.

Glass is the future, no question and training will have to adapt properly so that students have exposure to both steam and glass. The best solution would be to allow glass screens to also display information in the traditional steam gauge format, with all of the associated errors and drawbacks. The software would also need a way to display partial panel information in the six-pack display. At least get the student exposed to it and understand it. If in the future the student decides to pursue the freightdog route or any other place with the old gauges, they could always go and get some time in a simulator to get their scan back up. I imagine six-pack simulators will still be found for quite a while. Regardless of these new airplanes going all glass, there are still far more steam gauge planes flying around.

 

[Dugie8]

I thought you flew a DC-8? Do you guys even have an RNAV unit in that thing?

Haha, very funny. We have dual FMS and the -73 series have a "glass" ADI and HSI.

 

[Stone Cold]

woops, i thought it was Vmo to DH!!!!

Well, I was trying not to scare too many people on a public forum. Of course, I'm here in ICT now with Pounder, so it should be interesting on how much he tries to keep me to profiles, or whatever those thingies are called.:insane:


It's a joke, people!!! Yes, us freight dawgs are dangerous and should have been dead long ago, since we fly old equipment and don't have glass cockpits.:insane:

 

[killbilly]

So...

What are the avionics maintenance costs like for a typical steam-gauged aircraft, vs. a glass-packed one? Are there any kind of cost savings over the long run or are they too minimal to be of consequence?

 

[ananoman]

So...

What are the avionics maintenance costs like for a typical steam-gauged aircraft, vs. a glass-packed one? Are there any kind of cost savings over the long run or are they too minimal to be of consequence?

This would be hard to quantify. In a steam gauge light plane, you have to replace vacuum pumps on a somewhat regular basis if you are serious about flying IFR. If you go with a wet pump that you overhaul with the engine, this is less of a factor (still can't figure out why wet pumps are not more popular). If you look at a traditional 6 pack, none of the instruments are really that expensive. The exception is an HSI, which can cost a bundle if it is slaved. The good thing is most of the time you can have individual components overhauled or repaired is they fail. If you are curious look in Trade-a-Plane, as there are quite a few ads for instruments.

The same goes for radios, they are rather expensive. Especially the Garmins we all like so much, but they rarely fail.

Glass is probably less maintenance, but the cost to replace that stuff is extremely high. Since most of the systems are new, there have probably been few problems so far.

In the jets, the problem with steam gauges is getting parts for some of them. They just don't make new replacements anymore. Same goes for some of the first generation glass. Ten to fifteen years after production stops, parts are extremely scarce.

This may be a problem in the future with GA airplanes. Steam gauges were around forever. They had the advantage of being relatively interchangeable, since the mounting holes were a standard size. So were the rack mounted radios. The G1000 will be long out of production 20 years from now, but the aiplanes with that system will still be flying. You will probably see perfectly good airframes parked since it will cost more to upgrade the avionics than what the airplane is worth.