New pilots learning on glass.. Problem down the road?

So what happens when these guys end up as flight instructors in round dial aircraft in actual?


Good point, but from what I have seen, every flight school has insurance requirements that require everyone who flies their planes to be checked out in each. At my school you have to get checked out in the Glass 172 even if you have a million hours in the steam gauges. I would imagine the reverse is also true.

Nothing a little training can't take care of.

I would also think that any flight instructor that has any respect for flying, won't take a plane into actual unless he is totally confident in his abilities in that particular airplane.
 
I couldn't agree more... I think the best way to start out is to use a NavII Cessna, then after you get your private start mixing it up between the two. After seeing the ins and outs in both the steam and glass planes you will be fine changing between the two cockpits and should be fairly good on both styles by the time the Instrument ride comes along.

When the IFR ride comes along though, I would rather take it in a glass any day, and I am saying this even though I have no IFR time in glass planes.

Of course you would rather do the ride in Glass its easier. :)

Its a little different when you are using a dual VOR no DME setup and your are timing your legs and approaches with a stop watch. I doubt its very difficult to follow a line on a GPS display. Just my two cents, I have no glass panel experience but from what I have seen I would say that you would be well served to learn in the old school plane first and do your ride that way, and then take a 4-5 hour glass transition course rather than the other way around.

I'd hate to see a glass only IR pilot rent a steam plane and go hard IMC. Sure they have an IR but they will be ill prepared.
 
As far as descent planning, there's very little to plan...stay as high as possible, for as long as possible, dive in at low power settings at max speed for your turbulence level, and slow down as you are within 5 miles (or if in a Caravan, within 1/2 mile, and make the first turn-off). In a recip, use the power reduction schedule your company uses, stay high and descend for speed, and in a 'Van, Vmo to 1/2 mile final.


woops, i thought it was Vmo to DH!!!!
 
I have heard that Avidyne is considering a version of the PFD software to be able to switch back to a six pack arrangement if you want. I know the new Rev6 doesn't so not sure how long it might be before they might even do it.
 
I have heard that Avidyne is considering a version of the PFD software to be able to switch back to a six pack arrangement if you want. I know the new Rev6 doesn't so not sure how long it might be before they might even do it.
:yeahthat: I heard that as well from an Avidyne rep. I was talking with a month ago or so...
 
Doesn't Southwest use a glass cockpit setup that has the sixpack displayed intstead of tape and so on like a traditional glass cockpit? I know I have seen that picture before.

I think that would be great if you could switch back and forth with the press of a button. Perhaps something like reversionary mode on the G1000? One switch gives you a sixpack. That would be cool! It gets hard to cut out the sticky notes so they cover up certain things on the PFD.
 
Glass is for girls? Damn, I guess Bombardier, Embraer, Airbus and Boeing must be wrong..... :)

SWA has their -700s with a six packish set up so it's easier to transition from a -300 to a -700 since you might have to do that from one flight to the other.

John, does the G430 offer downlink for XM weather that it can overly onto your flight path? That's one thing off the top of my head I think the G1000 can do that the 430 can't (besides the XM radio).

As far as the glass checkride being easier, I know of at least one person that would argue against that. It depends on the examiner. If they don't know the system, you're fux0rd. This guy failed his CFI-I ride with the FSDO b/c the examiner just covered up two instruments with post-its. The problem is, with the G1000, your inclinometer (aka ball of the turn coordinator) is integrated with the attitude indicator. As a result, the guy busted on timed turns to a heading since he couldn't do a standard rate turn. Why? The inspector didn't follow proper G1000 procedures for testing that manuever. He didn't know the system, so he improvised and screwed the applicant in the process. The worst part, was the guy didn't even care and didn't WANT to know the right way to do it.

We've also heard "Anyone that shows up for a checkride in the G1000 is automatically gonna bust." That was from another FSDO inspector.

Yeah, the whole Cessna glass thing is true. Why? B/c they offer the six pack as an OPTION on their new planes now. Why get a six pack when you can get a G1000 for about the same price? No vaccum pumps (well, ONE) to deal with, less plumbing involved between the instruments, and fewer things to check. I'm betting Piper and Raytheon will do the same thing before long.
 
I think that would be great if you could switch back and forth with the press of a button. Perhaps something like reversionary mode on the G1000? One switch gives you a sixpack. That would be cool! It gets hard to cut out the sticky notes so they cover up certain things on the PFD.



Dim the PFD and have them fly in reversionary mode. That's what the student would be doing in a PFD failure, and that's how Cessna and the FAA have agreed it should be trained. As for partial panel.....there's a couple of ways to do that. You can cover up individual instruments with post it (thus covering the screen in sticky crap), or you can dim the PFD and have them fly using the X-track mode and the MFD with the backup instruments, also how the FAA and Cessna have said that should be taught.

Realistically, partial panel as taught in round dials wouldn't happen in a glass cockpit anyway. If you lost your attitude indicator and your DG, you've still got your backup attitude indicator, altimeter and airspeed indiactor. If your AI goes in the G1000, I wouldn't trust the altimeter or the airspeed indicator on the glass, either since your ADC is more than likely the cause. You MAY actually still have the DG since the AHRS unit is separate, but I'd cross-reference with the mag compass often.
 
Besides, a 172 with glass is just silly! :)

I want my students (and myself) looking outside for traffic rather than heaving their heads inside the cabin playing 'flight sim'.




One of the biggest problems I see in pilots while checking them out or riding with aircraft owners. Keep your freggin eyes out at all times not dickin around with cockpit gadgets and toys. Wait until cruise to dial in your favorite XM station!

BTW I have 0 time on glass I wouldn't know what buttons to dial or push
 
Dim the PFD and have them fly in reversionary mode. That's what the student would be doing in a PFD failure, and that's how Cessna and the FAA have agreed it should be trained.

Even in rev mode you still have all the same instruments. Am I missing something?
 
Even in rev mode you still have all the same instruments. Am I missing something?


About the only failure you are going to get in a G1000 is a screen failure of the MFD or PFD.

If one of the screens fail, it is supposed to automatically detect it and put itself into reversionary mode. I think he was saying to simulate a realistic failure you can dim the PFD to simulate its failure and then hit the red button which puts it in reversionary mode and you then have all your engine gauges and flight instruments on the MFD.

I would like to see some accident data on how safe a glass cockpit is compared to the traditional one. I have a feeling that once they become more popular the safety will go up dramatically as soon as people figure out how to use them.
 
I agree that they'll be safer once the learning curve (and the OOOOOH factor) stabilize. For now, they're just too new to have any data.

Timbuff's right. Like I said, the odds of you losing just the "vacuum instruments" in the G1000 are astronomical. You'll lose a screen before that happens. If you DO lose them, you've lost more than the AI and DG anyway. A screen failure is much more realistic and was always built into my checkouts. The flying on backup instruments with a failed PFD and only the MFD and X-track mode is a way to satisfy the partial panel portion of the instrument PTS only. I'd look for that to be changed in a few years for glass cockpits, though.
 
.......
I would like to see some accident data on how safe a glass cockpit is compared to the traditional one. I have a feeling that once they become more popular the safety will go up dramatically as soon as people figure out how to use them.

Another interesting comparison would be between the glass cockpit and Cirrus a/c.

Cirrus is a very safe a/c but when they first started being used, they were having a higher number of accidents than GA aircraft in general. People had the misleading feeling of being safer because of the BRS. Therefore, they were getting into situations where they had no business flying in. Inadvertent IMC, etc....

I wonder if the glass cockpit is leading to the same type of feeling?
 
As far as glass cockpit, I think the major pitfalls are gonna be reliance on automation (which is even a problem at the airline level) and people not looking outside, especially with the TIS system. What many people that fly these things don't realize is that TIS is only available in certain areas (hence the b*tchy lady saying "Traffic not available") and only picks up certain a/c. There is still a responsibility on the pilot to see and avoid. Used well, it's a fantastic tool, and it's saved my bacon a time or two. A Seminole took off the wrong way on the runway, no radio call while we were on the instrument approach (traffic was using 34, he was special and took off on 16 since he was going south). First indication I got was "Traffic." So, I glanced to where he was on the display, then (get this) LOOKED OUTSIDE to find him. Worked like a charm.
 
As far as glass cockpit, I think the major pitfalls are gonna be reliance on automation (which is even a problem at the airline level) and people not looking outside, especially with the TIS system. What many people that fly these things don't realize is that TIS is only available in certain areas (hence the b*tchy lady saying "Traffic not available") and only picks up certain a/c. There is still a responsibility on the pilot to see and avoid. Used well, it's a fantastic tool, and it's saved my bacon a time or two. A Seminole took off the wrong way on the runway, no radio call while we were on the instrument approach (traffic was using 34, he was special and took off on 16 since he was going south). First indication I got was "Traffic." So, I glanced to where he was on the display, then (get this) LOOKED OUTSIDE to find him. Worked like a charm.

That's exactly what I am talking about. Granted I have not flown a GP, but until people really get used to it, that 'false' sense of security may get some into trouble.
 
Let me start off by saying I hold a very strong opinion that new pilots should be using the "steam" gauge setup for all training, except for their private pilot, where they should be using outside references for the great percentage of the time. If you think for one second that we don't need to learn to fly by looking out the window, you are mistaken. Before I go on, I share a story...

We were departing one day in the RJ, and had run all proper checks on our instruments prior to departure. Somehow, on the takeoff roll, our heading indicators swung massively off course, so that after takeoff our heading showed 90-110 degrees off. Luckily it was a clear day, so being my leg I just flew airspeed, altitude, and standby compass, but most importantly checked these against the two greatest instruments God has provided pilots: The horizon and the ground. We quickly resolved the problem and were on our IFR way. I just can't stress the importance of looking out the window!

But I digress...

For four years of college I spent my time studying Aviation Human Factors, much of it relating to cockpit display systems. I have had it beat into my head the multitude of reasons why glass cockpit designs are safer for the modern pilot. They are much more intuitive at quick glance for the pilot to know their speed, altitude, position, and attitude. It is very easy if you look at the G1000 package: It is all aerial maps, a compass, a massive attitude indicator, and speed and altitude tapes (which are very intutive). A pilot can quickly gather and compute the information displayed in their brain, without having to interpret it like they do in older "steam" gauge setups. Isn't an altitude tape that moves down as you go up (as if you are climbing a ladder) easier to understand for height than a needle going in a circle? Yes.

Thing is though, what do we want to teach new pilots? I'd say we want to teach them to take information, some which is rather non-intuitive, and learn to construct a "picture" of the flight with that information. By giving a new pilot glass, you are creating a situation where the flight "picture" can be easy to decipher. When you put them in front of a six-pack, it is much more difficult to decipher the needles and dials (many in similar colors) to create a mental "picture." I'd rather teach a pilot to read and understand the difficult dials than just reading the information off a screen. It helps develop the pilots brain to interpret information better to understand where they are in the three-dimensional world that is flight.

I don't even need to describe the problems created for a new pilot with the GPS overlay maps and airport diagrams. How will a pilot ever navigate using a tiller in one hand and a chart in the other? I guarantee that if all future pilots in training never must learn to use a 10-9 chart (airport diagram) to taxi without a GPS map, there will be many runway incursions in the future as they move to equipment as professional pilots that do not have such luxuries. It is hard enough as an airline pilot to taxi "heads-up" with all the checklists required on the ground, now throw in no prior experience having to mentally picture your position by referencing runway signs and landmarks at night? Dangerous position.

I equate the glass and steam argument like this: Would you teach your child to write their ABCs with a pencil or type them on the computer first? Steam gauges are the "pencil" of a pilot, where you must create a mental picture and use the tools in hand to accomplish the task. Glass cockpits are the "computer" of a pilot, where the letters are in front of you, and you just need to pick the right ones to spell the word.
 
... There is still a responsibility on the pilot to see and avoid. Used well, it's a fantastic tool, and it's saved my bacon a time or two. A Seminole took off the wrong way on the runway, no radio call while we were on the instrument approach (traffic was using 34, he was special and took off on 16 since he was going south). First indication I got was "Traffic." So, I glanced to where he was on the display, then (get this) LOOKED OUTSIDE to find him. Worked like a charm.

I cannot stress how important see and avoid is. I've run into a few situations where we have passed by ultralights and gliders at our altitude, none of which has a transponder on board. Plus, the TCAS (or TIS) systems can be very confusing to a pilot, and actually do more harm than good. Let me see if I can post this article on TCAS.

Edit: Can't, it is too large. Here is the URL: http://www.eurocontrol.int/msa/gall...afety/ACAS_Bulletins-BUL6-D-1.1_21Apr2005.pdf
 
That's one small screen for a lot of info. You'll have guys squinting trying to get the info. In the meantime Joe in his Twin Cessna is coming in fast at 1 o'clock (Inside joke folks).

Matt, I agree that people should still learn on round dials. I'm a big supporter of that. However, after you learn how to fly it and the pitfalls associated with it, I still feel that glass makes you safer, especially from an SA stand point.

BTW, does the ERJ have anything that will let you know when the heading is off by X amount between the two displays? We get the annoying "EFIS COMP MON" all the time on the ground due to magnetic anomalies. All we have to do is flip the switch and set it with ye ole mag compass.
 
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