Twin Training has begun.

Oh and yes I will be doing actual Vmc demos not the girlie foot under the rudder ones. :sarcasm:

My CFI has no problem scaring the crap out of me for my own good. :)
 
BobDDuck said:
Actually Vmc is not a loss of direction control. Vmc is the minimum airspeed at which direction control can be maintained with the critical engine inop and a whole bunch of other factors in play (SMACFUM or your other favorite term). At Vmc the aircraft is in fact controllable. 1 knot below Vmc the aircraft is no longer directionally controllable. Not to rain on your parade but I highly doubt you are showing your students a true Vmc demo in the seminole as it is almost impossible to get to or below the true Vmc speed and not stall (which, as you already alluded (sp?) to is a bad thing). You may be simulating Vmc by minimizing rudder input and getting the aircraft to yaw uncontrollably, but that is not true Vmc as you still have rudder to use. There are other planes out there (the 310 comes to mind) where it is possible to due a true Vmc demo and recover due to loss of directional control instead of a stall horn or buffet. Those demos tend to be a bit more exciting (read scary as hell) then the PA44 one.
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Until you've dont it, dont comment about it. Take the PA44 into a Vmc demo configuration, fail an engine (usually the left) at around 100 knots, maintain altitude, and ignore any stall indication as your airspeed slows. You'll have the rudder fully pressed along with full aileron deflection and you'll see a complete loss of directional control. The aircraft will slowly being to turn (yaw) as the rudder becomes completely ineffective. That is as close to Vmc as you'll ever get.

Dont get yourself into a spin though... I'd recommend you take an experienced instructor with you if you're considering it. Better yet, take a 30,000 hr. military/airline pilot as the inspector who did my initial had. This was demonstrated to me on my initial. Scary?? Yes. Slow as hell, worried about spinning, ect...

So again said. If you havent dont it, zip it. Dont take your text book knowledge and try to sub it for real world experience Bob.
 
meritflyer said:
Me too.

Sidenote: I think its a common misconception that the aircraft will experience this abrupt, uncontrollable roll at a speed below Vmc.
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Not below Vmc its not really abrupt at all. BUT I have to believe that a stall in an asymetric configuration is an adventure I care not to experience. :insane:
 
meritflyer said:
.....
So again said. If you havent dont it, zip it. Dont take your text book knowledge and try to sub it for real world experience Bob.
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No disrespect intended Meritflyer, but I believe BobDDuck is a little further along in his career than you are. Even though he doesn't instruct FT, he has in the past.

As for his real world experience, he is a 121 F/O. So I don't think he is subbing book knowledge.

One other thing,

Open you mouth and Change Feet...... ;)
 
Hey Jep, you have no idea of my experience and/or knowledge base with regards to instructing or flying.

I will never be a "professional" pilot. So if you judge a person on what part of the FARs they fly under you're in trouble.

Oh yeah, and Gulfstreamers are also part 121 pilots. Does that make them the know-all of flying?

You may want to go wipe the brown off your nose. ;)
 
meritflyer said:
#1 Hey Jep, you have no idea of my experience and/or knowledge base with regards to instructing or flying.

#2 I will never be a "professional" pilot. So if you judge a person on what part of the FARs they fly under you're in trouble.

#3 Oh yeah, and Gulfstreamers are also part 121 pilots. Does that make them the know-all of flying?

#4 You may want to go wipe the brown off your nose. ;)
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meritflyer said:
ATP guys, is the 14 day CFI school for real? I have finally saved up the cash and want to do it in Vegas. Any thoughts would be great.

(Sorry if this has been asked a trillion times..)

Thanks.
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#1 Actually I do have an idea regarding your experience level (ref. your post above and it's March '06 post date) and this post: http://www.jetcareers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=354273&postcount=1 (4/17/06) and this post http://www.jetcareers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=387085&postcount=1 (06/17/06) unless of course you were telling us a fib and I doubt that.

#2 I could care less what part of the FAR's you fly under. All that I can judge someone here is by what they readily post. And according to what you have posted, you have not even been an instructor for 3 months.

#3 Not sure what that has to do with the price of tea in China, but no it doesn't make them a know it all of flying.

#4 Wipe the brown off my nose..... Please...... You were questioning the experience of another member here and I was just pointing out that he has more experience than you think. Something you could have easily done yourself if you'd take the time to look.
 
It was I being questioned Jeppy. Not the other way around. Maybe some member here need to mind their own business when two members are having a conversation. By the way, who hied you to be Bob's defense attorney?

I say again and for the last time, I could care less who works for a 121 airline. If I had a dollar for every 121 pilot that couldnt do the most basic flight profile, I'd be more rich than I already am.

Sorry D Dog that that your thread got hijacked.
 
JEP said:
#1 Actually I do have an idea regarding your experience level (ref. your post above and it's March '06 post date) and this post: http://www.jetcareers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=354273&postcount=1 (4/17/06) and this post http://www.jetcareers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=387085&postcount=1 (06/17/06) unless of course you were telling us a fib and I doubt that.
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Don't worry about it - if he is really taking a Seminole through the stall to Vmc he won't last much longer - the flat spin will kill him and unfortunately the student along with him. You can only get lucky so many times.

I had a friend who played fast and loose with the one engine stall characteristics of the Seminole - but he won't do that again, unfortunately.
 
Dude... calm down. I didn't mean to insult. It's just that if your only experience with Vmc is in a seminole, you need to be carful moving on to other aircraft as the Seminole is a really great training aircraft, but not very good when it comes to teaching people to fly other multi engine planes. I've done plenty of Vmc demos in a seminole. More then I care to think about really. Some I did to the "simulated" loss of directional control (ie blocked rudder) and some I did all the way to the first sign of a stall, normally the horn, some times a bufett (buffett? which ever one you don't eat). Once, a student locked up and pulled back at the horn causing the plane to break and roll about 80 degrees before I got the nose down and the power out. Fun stuff. As CFIse said, some times you are lucky.

You said it your self... you would rather Vmc then stall. Will the plane immediatly go into a flat spin? Probably not, but if you don't catch it really fast, chances are you are going to get in a position that chances are you won't recover from. Is that a lot of chances? Sure but basic aerodynamics says a stall combinded with an asymetrical thrust/drag situation and litte to no rudder to offset the spin is going to end badly. Search around for the video that Riddle did on a Dutches in a spin. Scary stuff.
 
meritflyer said:
Flat spin huh? Care to elaborate?
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The NTSB said it was a spin. Everybody who looked at the wreckage or looked at pictures of the wreckage said "that was flat when it hit" the wreckage had NONE of the characteristics of a "normal" spin crash and ALL the characteristics of a flat spin.

You guys need to grow up.
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Those of us who have survived teaching in multis are happily growing up, if you fly like you type, I'm not too confident about your odds.
 
Well, thanks guys for turning my thread into your own personal cat fight. I only post this crap for new students and soon to be students to read and get an idea of what the training is gonna be like. I guess I will just keep these things in my Blog.
 
Again D Dog, my apologies. Unfortunately, you and I were having a discussion about twins and a few people thought it was their place to jump in and troll the thread.
 
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