Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Kalitta Charters. Not Kalitta Air. Two entirely separate entities.
Amazon Air MIA Runway Excursion
- Thread starter Sluggo
- Start date
Maybe a few knots at that excessive speed, but might not have the weight on wheels enough to keep from just sailing over the whole thing, preventing much of its effectiveness. At least that’s what our training on it was.
It's shocking. What's up with the PM? Not once did he call for a GA or say, "my plane!" I do not understand this.DCA26MA352.aspx
www.ntsb.gov
A summary of select events captured on the FDR during the final few minutes of the FDR recording is provided below. All times are referenced relative to the end of the FDR recording. Note that the CVR and FDR times have not been precisely synchronized. The times and descriptions are preliminary and subject to change.
Approximate Time to End of CVR Recording (mm:ss) Observation 06:02 A pilot called for flaps to be set to 1 degree. 04:18 The flight crew checked in with Miami tower and were cleared to
land on runway 30.02:53 A pilot called for flaps to be set to 5 degrees. 02:37 The flight crew lowered the landing gear. 02:14 A pilot called for flaps to be set to 15 degrees. 01:42 A pilot called for flaps to be set to 20 degrees, and the other pilot cautioned they were too fast. The other pilot made additional comments regarding the aircraft’s excessive speed throughout the remainder of the recording. There was not a consistent verbal response to the comments about speed. 01:23 Sounds consistent with autopilot disconnect. 01:12 Electronic “one thousand” callout. 01:04 Electronic “sink rate sink rate” callout. 00:58 Electronic “five hundred” callout. 00:57 Electronic “sink rate sink rate” callout. 00:54 Electronic “one hundred” callout. 00:50 Electronic “minimums” callout. 00:48 Electronic “too low terrain” callout. Annunciated four times. 00:41 A pilot called for flaps to be set to 30 degrees. 00:40 Electronic “forty” callout. 00:39 Electronic “too low terrain” callout. 00:36 Electronic “ten” callout. 00:31 Sounds similar to the aircraft touching down. 00:15 A pilot called for a go-around. 00:10 Sounds similar to the aircraft departing the paved surface. 00:00 The CVR recording ended.
Approximate Time to End of FDR Recording
(mm:ss)Observation 00:30 The nose and right main gear touched down at a groundspeed of 158 knots. 00:23 The brakes were applied at a groundspeed of 146 knots. 00:19 The left main gear touched down at a groundspeed of 134
knots.00:15 Brakes were released at a groundspeed of 120 knots and throttles were increased to a value consistent with go-around thrust. 00:11 The throttles were reduced to idle power and the brakes were re-applied. The groundspeed was 117 knots. The throttles remained at idle, and brakes remained applied until the end of the recording. 00:07 Recorded lateral, longitudinal, and vertical acceleration values
changed markedly; the FDR data indicated a groundspeed of 96 knots.00:00 The FDR recording ended. The final recorded groundspeed was 65 knots. There was no indication in the recorded data that speed brakes or thrust reversers were deployed.
Images are available on NTSB's Flickr
Are they Dragster callsign?
adk
Steals Hotel Toilet Paper
If you click the link to look at the actual NTSB page, they refer to this as "a summary of select events" so I don't think the absence of something in this summary confirms that it didn't occur.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Not sure they have sorted out Captain vs FO. Somebody called for GA.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
I actually had to look it up, since Doug owns Charters and Charters II, along with Airnet now. It is Charters II that has the 73s and it is Dragster. Charters flies Lears, King Airs, and other smaller planes, with a Kalitta callsign. Kalitta Charters is the hypoxia audio everybody listens to in recurrent, with the Lear incident. I always get them confused.
At 15 seconds before the crash...a little too late. Should have been called well before reaching the threshold.
rockman2343@aol.com
Well-Known Member
When I first saw this I thought surely there must have been some mechanical failure or extreme wx phenomena. No one would be excessively fast short final and not go around, and they certainly wouldn't float halfway down the runway and not go around. I can't believe I was not only wrong, but it's worse. Who calls for flaps after the minimums call? This can't be real, the NTSB must of transcribed the CVR wrong. Sigh.
When I was teaching at a passenger carrier, I used to tell the class "we're not in the military, we're not police officers, we're not hero's, but we do have the ability to • up 50 lives, and those connected, if we don't do our job correctly." Now that I teach at a cargo carrier I give a similar speech, only it's lives on the ground. Unfortunately, like Colgan 3407, this looks like it's turning out to be just that. 7 people dead, because somebody didn't go around, and had ample opportunity to do so. It's bs.
When I was teaching at a passenger carrier, I used to tell the class "we're not in the military, we're not police officers, we're not hero's, but we do have the ability to • up 50 lives, and those connected, if we don't do our job correctly." Now that I teach at a cargo carrier I give a similar speech, only it's lives on the ground. Unfortunately, like Colgan 3407, this looks like it's turning out to be just that. 7 people dead, because somebody didn't go around, and had ample opportunity to do so. It's bs.
tcco94
Future GTA VI Pilot
True but still plenty of opportunities to go around after that… which in my opinion is worse. I mean wtf is going on over the threshold to flare, that is beyond scary. It’s criminal.
tlove482
Well-Known Member
Looks like he was high and fast so he dove for the runway. Anyone know flaps 30 speed? I'm guessing he was to fast for the flaps early on. Flaps 30 that close to the ground plus being fast would definitely make it hard to put it on the ground.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Brand new Capt. New to the plane. New to the company. Wonder if he was thinking "man, is that how it is here? and didn't take command cause he was the new guy. I'll say UPS preached the "No fault go around" and the stabilized approach criteria. Standards that should be preached.
tcco94
Future GTA VI Pilot
Do we know who was PF/PM?
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
I'd give dollars to donuts that it was the C/A flying the plane and the panicked F/O saying "SPEED SPEED SPEED", but I've been wrong before. In any case, as @DE727UPS points out, for all of their other faults, the brass around here really does want for you to go-around when you screw up. Not because they're great people (they aren't), but they do have an eye to the bottom line.
Hiboglossi
The Most Depressing Person
Are you sure? Flaps 30 speed is 170 on all of my airline's 767-300s. It is 162 on the 757-200 though so maybe you're thinking of that?
As a hip pocket reference, when on the ground with weight on wheels, one of our USAF Training Command IPs noted that with normal moderate braking on a variety of jets he flew both small and large, they on average lost about 20 lnots per 1000’. Thus, if you took the distance remaining board on the runway, and doubled it, you’d get a rough speed average reference for whether you’ll be able to stop or not. 6000 feet remaining / 6 board, multiple by two to get 12, add the zero, and 120 knots should be able to come to a complete stop from there with constant moderate braking. For a jet like the F-117 that had no flaps, no slats, no spoilers, and no speedbrakes, and relied fully on its drag chute; when that drag chute didn’t work and you had to get on the brakes and that’s all you had, a hip pocket easy formula like this would be handy to determine whether to begin braking, or cob the power in and accelerate for lift off again.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Usually the way it goes, statistically more likely CA is PF. FOs less likely to challenge and take over. If the FO is screwing up that bad, the CA usually calls for a go around or takes over sooner.
If it’s an approach related accident, it’s usually the CA as PF.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Oh. I think your right. The guy on the radio had an accent so he would have been the PM. My bad. I wonder what the Capts past experience was in.
GypsyPilot
Mohawk Town
Correct.
Just odd anyway that he’d call for F30, as they’d certainly experience “flap load relief” and retract back to F20 with those crazy airspeeds they had.
Most 767-300 pilots seem to use F25 when LGW < 300k anyway, which they were significantly under.