Skåning
Well-Known Member
Like Southwest in LGA Southwest Airlines Flight 345 - Wikipedia
Captain took over at 27 feet and jammed it into the runway. Apparently she was fired for it.
Commute Air Off Runway at ROA
- Thread starter touch-n-go
- Start date
Like Southwest in LGA Southwest Airlines Flight 345 - Wikipedia
Captain took over at 27 feet and jammed it into the runway. Apparently she was fired for it.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
You should read her interviews with the NTSB in the docket, especially her post-firing interview.
She was on the no fly list of a lot of people and had severe CRM issues.
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
I skimmed them—where did you read in an interview that she had “severe CRM issues”?
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
So in a 121 environment most pilots feel you should let the other pilot crash if they ignore you vs physically fix the sight picture for a safe landing or go around? Idk if that's the CRM the airlines want. I think a LOT of accidents could have been prevented with "Go Around! Hey, GO AROUND. My airplane? No? *Wap* My bird TOGA go around". A lot of accidents. Obviously verbal is best, but even at like 330 hours I've already seen someone about to break an airplane if I didnt pull the yoke back for them and add a little burst of power because words didn't work. Just because some people took over and made it worse doesn't mean there aren't countless 121 flights we'll never read about because the other pilot saved the bird and no one knew.
Thought we were all on the same page, guess not.
Hopefully we all never encounter something like this ROA incident, but gotta be honest I'm shocked at the consensus of "I guess just watch him crash and at least you tried on the CVR". I am not trying to throw shade at the FO at all, but I'd rather be explaining to a CP why I aggressively had to take over from the CA who ignored my calls which "could have gone bad" than sitting in the EMAS with my hands in my face. If I am ever about to wreck any size airplane and space out in the process ignoring you, hit me over the head with an extinguisher for all I care if I won't give up the controls or I'll be upset that you didn't.
Thought we were all on the same page, guess not.
Hopefully we all never encounter something like this ROA incident, but gotta be honest I'm shocked at the consensus of "I guess just watch him crash and at least you tried on the CVR". I am not trying to throw shade at the FO at all, but I'd rather be explaining to a CP why I aggressively had to take over from the CA who ignored my calls which "could have gone bad" than sitting in the EMAS with my hands in my face. If I am ever about to wreck any size airplane and space out in the process ignoring you, hit me over the head with an extinguisher for all I care if I won't give up the controls or I'll be upset that you didn't.
Reminds me of the SWA FO a buddy of mine was telling me about when he flew there, who would…for a nominal fee…happily trip trade to fly with anyone CA that any of the FOs didn’t want to fly with but were scheduled with. I think he flew with her a number of times. And made some fair bank with his standing offer.
Can’t top SWA 1455 / KBUR when it comes to famous last words on the CVR:
Capt: “well, there goes my career. You stupid chit.”
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Your ninja karate chop solution will, in many scenarios, lead to worse outcomes.
And it's not a common solution to the problem.
OzoneScrubber
Well-Known Member
What a karate chop may look like.
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
Meh, just how it happened. Hopefully, all you have to do is grab the crap out of their shoulder or something. Whatever gets their hands off the controls before they bend a prop or collapse the EMAS.
My interpretation of many NTSB reports I've read over the years is that physical intervention could have saved lives. To each their own.
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
What are you "Wap"ing? How would that look exactly? Outside of the Airbus, where you can push a button and takeover, undoing your shoulder harness and john wayning the other pilot at 5 feet off the runway? You also have the benefit of knowing the end result.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
The inertia and control response of a 150,000 lbs (or 500,000 lbs) jet is incredibly different than a 172.
HeyEng
Well-Known Member
Thought about you when I was reading up on the SWA 345 accident. The FO was a -117 guy for almost 4 years...perhaps you knew/know him. (Andrew Mann).
Yeah, Sporte. He is as a few years ahead of me in the program. Didn’t know it was him. Interesting.
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
Ok, then find another way to force the pilot to let you fix their mess. I just told a story, one size does not fit all, but the part about saving a crash landing is paramount.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
IMHO, the reality is that if you're in the situation this F/O was in, there is no right answer in a jet. For all you know, by the time you judo-chop and grab the controls, he's already popped the reversers and trying to go is actually going to be worse than trying to stop. Which is why there should never be any discussion when someone says "go around" (and a go-around is feasible). The glaring failure here is the C/A (and I guess maybe the fact that he snuck through training however many times).
guywhoflies
Y'NO WUT IM SAYIN
This was the exact scenario I presented to the soon-to-be newly minted CA when I was playing FAA on the jumpseat. I had a guy that was high and fast on a visual approach in perfect VMC conditions. I nearly had to call the go-around, but my prodding the LCP “FO” in the right seat finally got the crew to wave off the approach.
Granted, on that particular flight, they could have gotten the plane down and stopped with no issue, but on a wet/icy runway, they would have been • out of luck.
In addition, there were numerous other issues that showed me the CA candidate was not ready to be PIC.
Whenever I think back to my days doing fed rides — specifically, the ones that I didn’t feel comfortable giving the stamp of approval — it is situations like this one that make me sleep better at night.
Granted, on that particular flight, they could have gotten the plane down and stopped with no issue, but on a wet/icy runway, they would have been • out of luck.
In addition, there were numerous other issues that showed me the CA candidate was not ready to be PIC.
Whenever I think back to my days doing fed rides — specifically, the ones that I didn’t feel comfortable giving the stamp of approval — it is situations like this one that make me sleep better at night.
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knot4u
Repeat Offender
I've always heard that sort of pairing is avoided at the airline level.
HeyEng
Well-Known Member
I would guess he doesn't discuss it too much.
Hiboglossi
The Most Depressing Person
It is to a certain extent, but the only restriction is that one of the pilots must have at least 75 hours in seat and type at that carrier, which isn't a whole lot of experience in the grand scheme of things.
14 CFR § 121.438 - Pilot operating limitations and pairing requirements.
knot4u
Repeat Offender
That's the CFR, but I always thought the airlines had policies that aren't scraping the bottom of the legal barrel when it comes to pairing. New FO-Experienced Captain/New Captain-Experienced FO? Brings up a question. Shouldn't the new Captain already be an experienced FO? I'm confused, but I'm not an airline pilot and my understanding of CRM is tangential at best.It is to a certain extent, but the only restriction is that one of the pilots must have at least 75 hours in seat and type at that carrier, which isn't a whole lot of experience in the grand scheme of things.
14 CFR § 121.438 - Pilot operating limitations and pairing requirements.
www.law.cornell.edu
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