Air India plane crash

I mean maybe the controller was having a hard time living with it and this was an end to his pain? Or maybe, since the guy killed him in front of his family, there will be a counter-retribution some day? Who knows what one of those kids might do......
Wtf is wrong with you? Is this some way for you to try to make sense of what happened? Whatever pain he was in, it was no one else's right to end. And a counter-retribution? You can't be serious.

Maybe you aren't familiar with the accident? It was largely not the controller's fault. Had any one of a number of factors been different that night, this accident might not have occurred. Nielson wasn't even convicted in this accident, but 4 Skyguide managers were convicted of manslaughter due to their negligence. Their sentences were suspended. Why didn't Kaloyev go after these people? In their trial, the Skyguide managers all blamed Nielson, of course. Kaloyev only received 5 years for the murder of Nielson. He was given a hero's welcome upon his return to Russia, hailed as a "real human being."

A rational person could read about this investigation and understand that there were systemic issues at play at multiple levels which contributed to this accident, as there are with most aviation accidents. Nielson made some mistakes, but he isn't solely (or even mostly) responsible. Kaloyev wasn't rational.

"The airspace was controlled from Zürich, Switzerland, by the Swiss federal airspace control Skyguide. Air traffic controller Peter Nielsen, the only controller handling the airspace, was burdened with working two workstations at the same time.

Nielsen permitted Flight 611 to climb after about four to five minutes, after which Flight 611 reached the desired altitude at 23:29. Meanwhile, Flight 2937 contacted Nielsen at 23:30, which also reported to be at flight level 360. Nielsen acknowledged the flight, but did not assign a different altitude to either aircraft. That meant that both were now at the same altitude and on a collision course. Hero's welcome for murderer

Some excerpts from Wiki:

"At 23:34:49 bout a minute before the collision, Flight 2937's TCAS instructed them to climb; seconds later, Nielsen, realizing the oncoming danger, contacted Flight 2937 and instructed the pilot to descend to flight level 350 (1000 ft lower) to avoid collision with crossing traffic (Flight 611). The crew of Flight 2937 disengaged the autopilot and initiated their descent at 23:35, obeying the controller instead of the TCAS. At about the same time, the TCAS on Flight 611 instructed the crew of that aircraft to descend. The collision would thus not have occurred if both the aircraft's crews had obeyed the TCAS's instructions."

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"Other factors in the crash​

Only one air traffic controller (ATC), Peter Nielsen of ACC Zurich, was controlling the airspace through which the aircraft were flying. The other controller on duty was resting in another room for the night. This was against Skyguide's regulations, but had been a common practice for years and was known and tolerated by management. Maintenance work was being carried out on the main radar image processing system, which meant that the controllers were forced to use a fallback system. Telephone systems were also under maintenance, preventing contact between other air traffic control personnel. A delayed flight arrived for landing at Friedrichshafen, and with the telephone system under maintenance, Nielsen was forced to remain in contact with the pilots, until they came into contact with the Friedrichshafen tower, while the two planes approached collision.

The ground-based optical collision warning system, which would have alerted the controller to the pending collision about two minutes before it happened, had been switched off for maintenance. An aural short-term conflict alert warning system released a warning addressed to workstation RE SUED at 23:35:00 (32 seconds before the collision). This warning was not heard by anyone present at that time, although no error in this system could be found in a subsequent technical audit;  however, whether or not this audible warning is functional is not something that is technically logged. Even if Nielsen had heard this warning, at that time finding a useful resolution order by the ATC was impossible."

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"The statement by Bahrain, the home country of the DHL plane, mostly agrees with the findings of the report. It says that the report should have put less emphasis on the actions of individuals and more on the faults within Skyguide's organization and management. Bahrain's statement also mentions the lack of crew resource management in the Tupolev's cockpit as a factor in the crash."

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"Switzerland notes that the Tupolev was about 33 m (108 ft) below the flight level ordered by the Swiss controller, and still descending at 580 m/min (1,900 ft/min). The Swiss say that this was also a cause of the accident. Switzerland also requested that the BFU make a formal finding that the TCAS advisories would have been useful if obeyed immediately; the BFU declined to do so."

 
My suspicion with our friend's son is that he was a victim of some sort of online extortion scam. There were legitimately no signs according to everyone around him, including his college roommate who found him. Was active in school and was telling everyone how much he enjoyed it, and was on a clear track for professional advancement.

Having heard some of these stories, and having been a victim myself (in a less dramatic way), this scares me to death with my own sons. I think this is behind a long of young male suicides when there isn't any other obvious cause.
Sometimes, there are no outward signs of distress before a person commits suicide, even to close family members. A 2018 CDC study found that 54% of individuals who died by suicide didn't have a known psychiatric condition. Many suicides aren't due to depression, but other factors. Suicide due to extortion is possible.
 
lots of words and google links

Yes, I'm quite familiar with this mishap. I was an adult when it occurred and remember it and it's aftermath well. I'm saying that the russian guy is no more justified in killing the controller, than the controller's family would be justified in now killing him for his actions. Even if the controller had been totally at fault, that isn't a reasonable way to have dealt with the situation. And I'd argue that the russian committed pre-meditated murder, whereas the controller at best, made some errors that were compounded by the errors of others (not truly at fault, like you say). Revenge begets revenge, or something like that.
 
Yes, I'm quite familiar with this mishap. I was an adult when it occurred and remember it and it's aftermath well. I'm saying that the russian guy is no more justified in killing the controller, than the controller's family would be justified in now killing him for his actions. Even if the controller had been totally at fault, that isn't a reasonable way to have dealt with the situation. And I'd argue that the russian committed pre-meditated murder, whereas the controller at best, made some errors that were compounded by the errors of others (not truly at fault, like you say). Revenge begets revenge, or something like that.
I was an adult, too, when it occurred. I agree with you here. You seemed to be implying something else in your previous post. Sorry I misunderstood.
 
For you airline pilots, did the 2002 midair lead to policy changes on whether TCAS commands override ATC instructions?
 
Yes, I'm quite familiar with this mishap. I was an adult when it occurred and remember it and it's aftermath well. I'm saying that the russian guy is no more justified in killing the controller, than the controller's family would be justified in now killing him for his actions. Even if the controller had been totally at fault, that isn't a reasonable way to have dealt with the situation. And I'd argue that the russian committed pre-meditated murder, whereas the controller at best, made some errors that were compounded by the errors of others (not truly at fault, like you say). Revenge begets revenge, or something like that.

Brevity wasn’t your friend in your previous post.

Your 129 buddies were awesome, meeting with CAP cadets before the show for a private meet and greet.
 
Your 129 buddies were awesome, meeting with CAP cadets before the show for a private meet and greet.

Hah nice, glad you had a good time. I haven't actually watched the demo in years now, but it seems like a pretty good gig during a shore tour. They're definitely gone a lot though. Not quite as much as buds I've had who flew for the Blues, but it's still a lot of travel. I believe I heard this year's schedule is their most aggressive/busiest in the history of the demo team.
 
For you airline pilots, did the 2002 midair lead to policy changes on whether TCAS commands override ATC instructions?

I feel like a lot of such big changes in aviation regulations are somewhat difficult to attribute to just one incident. Stuff like 250 knots below 10k, or heck, even the creation of TCAS itself, were written in various strokes of blood. I never flew anything TCAS equipped prior to the airlines, so others can speak much better to your direct question with respect to that timeframe. But I'd say it is often a "preponderance of evidence" which leads to significant changes in aviation safety. One notable thing is just how often NTSB report recommendations go die on the vine at the FAA, probably with some level of interference being run by the air carriers themselves. It's a pretty powerful lobby.
 
I feel like a lot of such big changes in aviation regulations are somewhat difficult to attribute to just one incident. Stuff like 250 knots below 10k, or heck, even the creation of TCAS itself, were written in various strokes of blood. I never flew anything TCAS equipped prior to the airlines, so others can speak much better to your direct question with respect to that timeframe. But I'd say it is often a "preponderance of evidence" which leads to significant changes in aviation safety. One notable thing is just how often NTSB report recommendations go die on the vine at the FAA, probably with some level of interference being run by the air carriers themselves. It's a pretty powerful lobby.

Don’t forget the manufacturers (and, to a lesser extent, suppliers).
 
I feel like a lot of such big changes in aviation regulations are somewhat difficult to attribute to just one incident. Stuff like 250 knots below 10k, or heck, even the creation of TCAS itself, were written in various strokes of blood. I never flew anything TCAS equipped prior to the airlines, so others can speak much better to your direct question with respect to that timeframe. But I'd say it is often a "preponderance of evidence" which leads to significant changes in aviation safety. One notable thing is just how often NTSB report recommendations go die on the vine at the FAA, probably with some level of interference being run by the air carriers themselves. It's a pretty powerful lobby.

ALA lobby is pretty powerful. ALPA PAC too.

Wild talking to my buddy who works at Boeing. He pointed out a 757 that nearly lost control on final at SEA years ago. It made the KING 5 News and everyone knew it was PIO. ALPA got mad and said you guys can't call it PIO. Can't use an acronym that indicates something bad that starts with "pilot". You have to call it APC. Which starts with aircraft but I can't remember the rest.

You'd think pilots would be more accountable. ALPA guards the FOQA data like a rabid dog. They generally won't even share it with Boeing. When all Boeing wants to do with it is learn how pilots operate the aircraft.
 
Hah nice, glad you had a good time. I haven't actually watched the demo in years now, but it seems like a pretty good gig during a shore tour. They're definitely gone a lot though. Not quite as much as buds I've had who flew for the Blues, but it's still a lot of travel. I believe I heard this year's schedule is their most aggressive/busiest in the history of the demo team.
You guys talking about the Growler demo? If so, I saw them at Sun n Fun. They put on a great show!
 
Probably “Aircraft Pitch Cycling”

It is similarly acceptable to label something “limit-cycle oscillation” where “flutter” is heretical.
 
Yes, this was a direct contributor to TCAS RA’s taking precedence over ATC instructions
I was under the impression that TCAS RAs always took precedent in the western world, and it was the Russian pilots who were improperly trained, hence the reason both aircraft descended. The DHL crew followed the RA, the Russians followed the controller instructions.
 
Ours mentions a 40 mile ring around Gunnison, CO. So I always put that on the fix page with a 40 mile ring.

You drop to 17k initially, and then depending on direction and east/west of a certain Lat/Long, you go to RODDY or MTJ. Within 10 miles of that fix, you can drop to 10k.

For us it’s “additional info” at the end of the QRH for emergency descent.
Oh geez. We are just out there meandering around mountainous terrain hoping nothing bad happens.

The only thing even approaching that level of detail over here is south of the border, and it includes a set of charts so complicated that most people don't even look at them.

(I generally try to draw a highlighter on the emergency descent charts along our course, but the FOs always give me a WTF are you doing kinda look)
 
I was under the impression that TCAS RAs always took precedent in the western world, and it was the Russian pilots who were improperly trained, hence the reason both aircraft descended. The DHL crew followed the RA, the Russians followed the controller instructions.
Agree. I don't ever remember a time when an RA didn't overrule an ATC clearance.
 
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