ASpilot2be
Qbicle seat warmer
Like Mr Duck said, it has to do with the notice of the merger happening in January 24.
Alaska Hawaiian Merger
- Thread starter alaskadrifter
- Start date
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
The Date of Constructive Notice (which is basically when the merger was a real thing) is December 3rd, 2023. So anybody hired after that, should have known that they were getting hired into a merged carrier and their career expectations were whatever the merged carrier gave them. As such they are only subject to Seniority/Longevity in ALPA merger policy. Anybody hired before December 3rd, 2023 went assuming that their career expectations would be whatever that specific carrier provided. I suppose that if we ended up with just a straight DOH ISL, it wouldn't be any different for the guys hired before as the ones after, but I doubt it is going to be straight DOH.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Ahh gotcha. So by *not* straight DOH, are you just referring to fences? And the idea that a post 2023 HAL hire would not be inside those fences, just as we wouldn't? (under the career expectations clause or whatever you'd call it)
Just curious if I stand to gain relative seniority in SEA 737, or massively lose it due to longtime commuters coming home and leaving WB
(really I don't care any more than I do about my current stock market holdings, compared to a very long term outlook)
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
I don’t think there’s any way to know that until the SLI shakes out. All of us on either property will be senior to these folks, but since they’re hiring into HA airframes and bases (as I read it) it won’t do diddly for your or my seniority in base in the meantimeJust curious if I stand to gain relative seniority in SEA 737, or massively lose it due to longtime commuters coming home and leaving WB
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I guess my seniority query rests with the idea that multiple 787's don't fall under a fence (since in AS pilot lore, they were on property after the merge), and thus senior 737 FO's head that way. Counterpoint is that we hired a bunch of us at the same time that HAL did, and DoH is gonna be a real random pie splatter. Either way, I'm not losing sleep over it, just curious
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Ahh gotcha. So by *not* straight DOH, are you just referring to fences? And the idea that a post 2023 HAL hire would not be inside those fences, just as we wouldn't? (under the career expectations clause or whatever you'd call it)
Just curious if I stand to gain relative seniority in SEA 737, or massively lose it due to longtime commuters coming home and leaving WB
Like Roger said, a lot of that is probably unknown until the SLI is done, but a fair amount of what you were wondering is covered in ALPA merger policy and in the TPA.
First, the TPA is pretty clear that any aircraft on property, firmly ordered, or held by option, belongs to the Company who had it on their books at the time of the merger. So that's 290(ish) 737s to Alaska, and 16 717s, 18, 321s, 24 330-200s, 10 330-300s, and 12(+8 options) 787s to Hawaiian. If they have been delivered or not plays no bearing in the math of total aircraft.
When I mention not straight DOH, I don't mean fences. Remember that there are 3 legs to the ISL stool... Seniority, Longevity, and Career Expectations. And in pretty much every merger since ALPA policy has been applied, Career Expectations is all about widebody flying. I think both properties are pretty similar on Seniority and Longevity, so that just means the Career Expectations comes into play. Who knows how that will get negotiated or arbitrated, but I doubt the list will go together based solely on date of hire. It is likely (unless they just toss a fence on the book widebodies until the most junior pilot at Hawaiian on December 3rd 2023 has the ability to upgrade... which is very unlikely) that there will be some rearranging of DOH via stovepiping or something similar.
I'm not sure how active your Merger Committee is in answering DARTS, but ours has been really good about questions like this, so that might be a good place for you to go to get some feedback on your thoughts.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
So you are saying that you think HAL WB FO's will get an artificial DoH bump to protect their wide bodying? Probably misunderstanding what you are saying, but I don't understand stove piping.
Thanks for the clarity on the "options", that makes much more sense, and is entirely counter to the "rumor mill" going around here (as to be expected). Like I said, don't really care either way, but that kind of affirms what I expected (clearly I don't know how to read anything
)
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
That is a very real possibility that a lot of HAL pilots (not just WB FOs) could get a bump on their seniority (which could equate to some kind of formula based on DOH or different method). I'm a good example of that. I'm about 33% on the seniority list at an airline that is 60% widebodies (assuming all 20 787s... 54% widebodies if you just look at the aircraft on property now). On a combined list, based strictly on date of hire, I'd be right around 34%... But only about 12% of our aircraft are widebodies. If I don't get some kind of protection (either via fences or a seniority boost), and I were to get displaced because they move my fleet somewhere else, it is unlikely that I would ever get back into a widebody, or at least not for a long time.
So it just depends on the method (or combination of methods) used, and how much they mitigate the potential for harm. In my case, where I already hold the left seat of a widebody, the harm would be actual so there would (in theory) need to be more of a protection in place. For somebody who is 90% on the list and currently a 717 FO, the potential harm is slightly more theoretical as they can't currently hold a widebody Captain seat. But maybe they could hold the FO seat (or could soon), so there is (under the Career Expectations portion) some need to provide a level of protection to them as well.
This is the ugly part of mergers, especially ones that are unbalanced in one of the three legs of the stool.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Gotcha and that makes some sense. Seems like the fence would be an easier way to deal with that, though admittedly somewhat short lived. I could see the scenario where the fence expires and there is a shuffle of fleets (as one might expect there to be). The 54% to 12% of fleet is a big number. Like I said, I have a minimal dog in this fight since I plan to stay a NB local guy. But it would be pretty chill if my relative seniority at least remained the same, rather than slip 3-4% right as it has in the last year when they started bringing our "flight instructor FO" cadre back to the line. I assume most of that will be more related to who chooses to leave WB flying for west coast basing, vs continues to remain in the status quo.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I see very, very few current commuting widebody captains bidding 737 bases to avoid a commute. I see a few commuting widebody FOs bidding 737 CA seat, but that is a rather limited number. Also, as long as the Amazon cargo operation continues to tick along, that is a much better option than a 737 for people on the mainland who are chasing widebody pay.
EDIT: Fences are easier, but they only last as long as the fence is in place, and fences are a logistical nightmare for companies. Northwest/Republic had 20 year fences and it was a mess. Seniority boosts are forever. But maybe don't help somebody out until much farther into their career than a fence. I'm glad I have no part in any of that negotiation.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
I agree, though this does sound like best case (for HAL) scenario with a bunch of AS management pilots on the other end of the negotiating table. Who to be fair, wouldn't suffer much at the hands of a not-really-DOH SLI. I guess time will tell.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
People in my NH group chat are going nuts on speculation already…like my dudes, we’re on the bottom no matter what happens.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
With over 40 HAL pilots just in the state of WA as of around 2021, I find it strange that few would stop commuting and drive to work. I had one pilot in the jumpseat with over 20 years of seniority that looked really tired after flying a trip to Asia and back from HNL.
Shiny jets are shiny and all and maybe I’m just jaded since I’m just a guppy pilot but it seems ridiculous to drive an hour or two to SEA, jump on a HAL or AS flight for 5-6 hrs just to get to my base to start work. I’ve never flown a widebody and never cared to but I just don’t see how it’s worth it to go through a commute like that.
The real crux of the situation at least for me being at the bottom of the captain seniority list in SEA, is how the SEA widebody base goes. If it goes super senior or if the customers never show up and it doesn’t grow. I’d think that would be really bad for me. Doubly so if the shenanigans at Boeing continue for a few more years.
I’ve already survived one reduction bid and I’ll have no control over the next one, the outcome of the SLI or if pilots value QOL over a big shiny jet. So I’m not wasting my time worrying about it. However, I’m not seeing rainbows and unicorns either. The narrow body fleet I’m flying is smaller than it was in 2019 and deliveries are barely keeping up with aircraft retired or destroyed by ground handling mishaps.
If there was a plan, competence or any signs of growth on my fleet I wouldn’t be concerned at all. Sadly that’s not the case.
Reserve4Ever
Well-Known Member
There are quite a few pilots at Alaska living in a dream world being under the impression that the companies financial standing/outlook plays some part in the arbitrators SLI decisions, it doesn’t. Based on the ALPA merger policy I think there’s a good chance that a lot of Alaska pilots are going to be pretty disappointed based on their current expect. My guess is that on average a pilot at Hawaiian will fare a little bit better than the average Alaska pilot in all of this, mostly based on their career expectations.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Narrowbody fleet is smaller than it was in 2019 yet you were hired in 2019 and already a CA in 4 yrs. What does that tell you?
You sound ungreatful and constantly POed.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
You should consider not having an emotional response to my posts. Also I was not hired in 2019.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
2018*
It’s not an emotional response. It’s just that you are always a complainer and Debbie downer. Considering how little you spent at Skywest and how quickly you upgraded at AS. One would think that 121 kinda progression would come with humble pie.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The company has no part in SLI negotiations. Your merger committee is made up of 3 (soon to be 4 I think) of your line pilots who are appointed by the MEC. If you trust your MEC reps, then you trust your merger committee to fight for what is best for you. If you don't trust your merger committee will do what is best for you, then recall your reps and put people in place that you trust to appoint a merger committee that you can trust.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Oooh, let me make some Orville Reddenbachers! CC is lecturing someone on forum decorum!
You better extra butter, cause it’s only gonna get salty from here on out