No gate, ramp closed, tornado warning, full airplane, now what?

bLizZuE

bLizZuE

Calling for engine starts en français
Recently completed an Orlando turn that included a little extra R-n-R in Grand Rapids.

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KGRR 302151Z 26048G70KT 3/4SM R26L/P6000FT +TSRA BR SQ SCT022CB BKN032 OVC055 17/15 A2953 RMK AO2 PK WND 26070/2150 WSHFT 2134 RAB36 TSB36 PRESRR FRQ LTGICCC ALQDS TS OHD MOV NE P0015 $

Pretty solid line of storms going over ORD at the time and we got holding. Had to move holding fixes for the storms and eventually decided it was time to just get on the ground. There was a chance for us to land, get gas, and get back in the air and go north of the storms and get in to ORD just fine. Several issues came up while on the ground and we were unable to beat the weather and ended up having to wait out the storm on the ramp. We had a write-up enroute, the ACARS failed during the diversion, apparently there is an issue with our new 321 neos that require the door to be opened for it to sequence the ATSU to the next flight, and the weather caused two other issues come up that I had to have MX help me reset.

While I was on the phone with MX, the weather and wind really started to pick up and the airplane was starting to get confused as to whether or not it was on the ground. Started getting master warnings like DUAL ENGINE FAIL and STALL with the parking brake set. Good times.

This is when my phone did that really loud TORNADO WARNING sound and apparently most of the passengers had the same thing. So here we are, on the ramp, hard stand, no gate, ramp is closed, (Later I learned that ATC had evacuated the tower), and the flight attendant calls and says we need to say something to the passengers because they are freaking out. Understandably.

I ended up making a PA while looking at the warning on my phone, comparing the radar with where we were, it seemed to me that we were past the main threat of the tornados.

But what if we weren't?
What's the best course of action?
Can you see the tornado coming?
Do you move the airplane?
Do you try to evacuate to get the passengers into the terminal?
 
bLizZuE said:
Recently completed an Orlando turn that included a little extra R-n-R in Grand Rapids.

View attachment 82997View attachment 82999

KGRR 302151Z 26048G70KT 3/4SM R26L/P6000FT +TSRA BR SQ SCT022CB BKN032 OVC055 17/15 A2953 RMK AO2 PK WND 26070/2150 WSHFT 2134 RAB36 TSB36 PRESRR FRQ LTGICCC ALQDS TS OHD MOV NE P0015 $

Pretty solid line of storms going over ORD at the time and we got holding. Had to move holding fixes for the storms and eventually decided it was time to just get on the ground. There was a chance for us to land, get gas, and get back in the air and go north of the storms and get in to ORD just fine. Several issues came up while on the ground and we were unable to beat the weather and ended up having to wait out the storm on the ramp. We had a write-up enroute, the ACARS failed during the diversion, apparently there is an issue with our new 321 neos that require the door to be opened for it to sequence the ATSU to the next flight, and the weather caused two other issues come up that I had to have MX help me reset.

While I was on the phone with MX, the weather and wind really started to pick up and the airplane was starting to get confused as to whether or not it was on the ground. Started getting master warnings like DUAL ENGINE FAIL and STALL with the parking brake set. Good times.

This is when my phone did that really loud TORNADO WARNING sound and apparently most of the passengers had the same thing. So here we are, on the ramp, hard stand, no gate, ramp is closed, (Later I learned that ATC had evacuated the tower), and the flight attendant calls and says we need to say something to the passengers because they are freaking out. Understandably.

I ended up making a PA while looking at the warning on my phone, comparing the radar with where we were, it seemed to me that we were past the main threat of the tornados.

But what if we weren't?
What's the best course of action?
Can you see the tornado coming?
Do you move the airplane?
Do you try to evacuate to get the passengers into the terminal?
Click to expand...
Damn, Hobson's choice, at best.
 
bLizZuE said:
Recently completed an Orlando turn that included a little extra R-n-R in Grand Rapids.

View attachment 82997View attachment 82999

KGRR 302151Z 26048G70KT 3/4SM R26L/P6000FT +TSRA BR SQ SCT022CB BKN032 OVC055 17/15 A2953 RMK AO2 PK WND 26070/2150 WSHFT 2134 RAB36 TSB36 PRESRR FRQ LTGICCC ALQDS TS OHD MOV NE P0015 $

Pretty solid line of storms going over ORD at the time and we got holding. Had to move holding fixes for the storms and eventually decided it was time to just get on the ground. There was a chance for us to land, get gas, and get back in the air and go north of the storms and get in to ORD just fine. Several issues came up while on the ground and we were unable to beat the weather and ended up having to wait out the storm on the ramp. We had a write-up enroute, the ACARS failed during the diversion, apparently there is an issue with our new 321 neos that require the door to be opened for it to sequence the ATSU to the next flight, and the weather caused two other issues come up that I had to have MX help me reset.

While I was on the phone with MX, the weather and wind really started to pick up and the airplane was starting to get confused as to whether or not it was on the ground. Started getting master warnings like DUAL ENGINE FAIL and STALL with the parking brake set. Good times.

This is when my phone did that really loud TORNADO WARNING sound and apparently most of the passengers had the same thing. So here we are, on the ramp, hard stand, no gate, ramp is closed, (Later I learned that ATC had evacuated the tower), and the flight attendant calls and says we need to say something to the passengers because they are freaking out. Understandably.

I ended up making a PA while looking at the warning on my phone, comparing the radar with where we were, it seemed to me that we were past the main threat of the tornados.

But what if we weren't?
What's the best course of action?
Can you see the tornado coming?
Do you move the airplane?
Do you try to evacuate to get the passengers into the terminal?
Click to expand...
Man, ok... so that would be freaking harrowing. I guess it depends on how much time you have. If you can't be sure that you could get everyone inside a stronger shelter on the surface somewhere, I'd probably keep everyone onboard?

My gut instinct is this. If you're in a "big" airplane, the best bet would probably be to stay in the airplane for shelter - having the pax scattered all over the ramp in a tornado sounds like a sure way to get someone killed. Maybe tell everyone to brace and turn away from windows? I'm not a big airplane person at all, but I would say, turn into the wind, make sure all the drag devices are out that you can get out, have everyone brace, and stay at the controls because you may try to fly whether you want to or not...

What a • sandwich lol. Probably depending how much time you have moving the airplane could be a really good idea. Like if you're going to get hit by a tornado you may be screwed no matter what you do, but if you can put some big heavy and anchored down mechanical things between yourself and the wind it might break up the flow a little bit? Or it might venturi between two hangers and suddenly you are flying lol. What does that thing stall at clean?

I guess it depends on where this is happening too, if there's actually an area where you could seek shelter, like maybe there's a ditch that people can get in, but how many people are on the flight? Can you fit everyone?

What a WILD scenario that I had never considered before. Thanks.
 
this ones been on my mind since the omaha tornado last year that ripped across the field. in your scenario without stairs or jet bridge, that leaves you with commanding evac which might leave people with even less shelter if you call it too late, slides blowing around in 70kt winds might also kill someone

if it’s light out you may be able to see it coming and maneuver a bit if it’s small enough. my thought was to get engines turning and spoilers up, elevator and stab full nose down(?) hopefully into the wind, and positioned somewhere where you have options on directions to taxi. if the field is closed a runway intersection might be the best spot for maneuvering and high speed taxi with ample asphalt and hopefully less debris than crap getting picked up and thrown across the ramp. kind of depends on airport layout and relative bearing to the weather. interested to hear others ideas.

edit: if it does look like it’s going to hit and you’re stuck, maybe worth getting luggage out of bins to place over windows? like a stack you build for a certain other scenario in flight. the more junk you can put between people and high speed debris the better, I’d think
 
bLizZuE said:
But what if we weren't?
What's the best course of action?
Can you see the tornado coming?
Do you move the airplane?
Do you try to evacuate to get the passengers into the terminal?
Click to expand...
Had something similar happen in DSM when I was a FO. We ended up parking the airplane in the wind and waiting it out.

For your questions, regarding a no kidding tornado on the field in your situation there isn't much more you can do. I wouldn't want to try to deplane or evacuate, as deplaning would endanger ground personnel and evacuating would take time, risk injury, and there isn't a guarantee of shelter once outside depending on where you are parked.

As an aside growing up in tornado alley I have spent a lot of time looking at sky during tornado warnings when we should have been in the basement and I was 22 years old when I finally saw one, it was sunny where I was and I was at MKC airport at work battening down the place for the coming storm. The tornado went north of the airport and was never a real threat to us so as to the being able to see it coming is kind of moot, treat a warning as if one is coming and take precautions.

The only other thing I could think of would be if you know you are going to be close or take a direct hit from one while in the airplane would be to make sure it is trimmed nose down, and maybe extend the speed brake just to help keep it from getting picked up off the ground. If you are that close to one chances are it is going to get beat up with debris or hail so you aren't going anywhere once it is over. Plus the airport is going to be smoked also so there will be that to deal with once it passes.
 
bLizZuE said:
Recently completed an Orlando turn that included a little extra R-n-R in Grand Rapids.

View attachment 82997View attachment 82999

KGRR 302151Z 26048G70KT 3/4SM R26L/P6000FT +TSRA BR SQ SCT022CB BKN032 OVC055 17/15 A2953 RMK AO2 PK WND 26070/2150 WSHFT 2134 RAB36 TSB36 PRESRR FRQ LTGICCC ALQDS TS OHD MOV NE P0015 $

Pretty solid line of storms going over ORD at the time and we got holding. Had to move holding fixes for the storms and eventually decided it was time to just get on the ground. There was a chance for us to land, get gas, and get back in the air and go north of the storms and get in to ORD just fine. Several issues came up while on the ground and we were unable to beat the weather and ended up having to wait out the storm on the ramp. We had a write-up enroute, the ACARS failed during the diversion, apparently there is an issue with our new 321 neos that require the door to be opened for it to sequence the ATSU to the next flight, and the weather caused two other issues come up that I had to have MX help me reset.

While I was on the phone with MX, the weather and wind really started to pick up and the airplane was starting to get confused as to whether or not it was on the ground. Started getting master warnings like DUAL ENGINE FAIL and STALL with the parking brake set. Good times.

This is when my phone did that really loud TORNADO WARNING sound and apparently most of the passengers had the same thing. So here we are, on the ramp, hard stand, no gate, ramp is closed, (Later I learned that ATC had evacuated the tower), and the flight attendant calls and says we need to say something to the passengers because they are freaking out. Understandably.

I ended up making a PA while looking at the warning on my phone, comparing the radar with where we were, it seemed to me that we were past the main threat of the tornados.

But what if we weren't?
What's the best course of action?
Can you see the tornado coming?
Do you move the airplane?
Do you try to evacuate to get the passengers into the terminal?
Click to expand...

I was sitting at home (in Grand Rapids) watching some really good local weather people dissect that storm in detail, minute by minute, and thinking about some of the nasty stuff being described in and around the airport, and what was happening there in response! Hard to imagine you sitting there with fingers crossed…glad you all were ok.

That line moved fast! I’m not just talking about wind speeds, but the line itself was hauling ass through the whole area. Incredible to see how fast it was on us, then gone. It was so fast moving I don’t see there being any opportunity to physically move an airplane on the ground in response to visual clues from the cockpit
 
I had a similar thing happen at IAD once. Push a crj700 off the gate with plans to beat the line of weather heading towards the field. The tow bar got stuck and by the time the rampers fixed it, the tower was evacuating and the ramp closed.

The line was moving south to north, so with the airport uncontrolled, us and two United 320s went up to the north end to wait it out, figuring we could go east or west on the airfield if we saw a tornado coming. Not a super great plan, but after talking to the gate agents once we finally went back and parked to get more gas, the plan inside the terminal (everyone stand in the bathrooms) wasn't much better.
 
I’m not trying to question what you did as a captain and Monday morning QB your situation as I think you did a great job with the information you had.

However, I do think this situation has brought up a good learning experience that I’m going to put in the filing cabinet moving forward.

We are so preloaded to just get the airplane on the ground, and then once it’s on the ground we are in the clear. In this scenario that wasn’t the case. When considering divert options we think of a lot of things, but the safety of the aircraft on the ground usually isn’t one of those items as you normally would assume that you’re safe once you’re in the blocks.

To wrap up, thanks for sharing this scenario as I do believe that this will change how I look at things come the divert decision as the PIC.
 
This just my honest “if I was faced with the same situation” take on it. Not to Monday morning QB your “in the heat of the moment” decisions. Given the information y’all seem to have been presented with, they all seem very sound/well thought out.

Me personally, I think once that second hold looked like it was happening, I’d have been making my escape plan. (Much like I assume yall did as well).

I “think” I’d have gone for DTW over GRR (not because it’s a major hub for my flavour of air line), but because I know GRR is gate constrained…and if push really came to shove, it’d be easier to find a gate to get on in DTW.

Again, this is the “30,000ft over view” with plenty of time to think, not faced with fuel issues/etc.

It’s good to see things like this back in the JC topics. We should all learn from each others experiences/situations.

Thanks for sharing it :)
 
Not even a divert...I remember one time heading back cross-country in the "mighty" M2 where I decided to stop for gas and lunch, let a nasty front pass, and continue on. And then the hangar started flooding and the shack of a FBO attached to it made non-confidence-inspiring noises in the wind. Definitely didn't think about those possibilities.
 
jhugz said:
I’m not trying to question what you did as a captain and Monday morning QB your situation as I think you did a great job with the information you had.

However, I do think this situation has brought up a good learning experience that I’m going to put in the filing cabinet moving forward.

We are so preloaded to just get the airplane on the ground, and then once it’s on the ground we are in the clear. In this scenario that wasn’t the case. When considering divert options we think of a lot of things, but the safety of the aircraft on the ground usually isn’t one of those items as you normally would assume that you’re safe once you’re in the blocks.

To wrap up, thanks for sharing this scenario as I do believe that this will change how I look at things come the divert decision as the PIC.
Click to expand...
Original alternate was IND and we moved it to GRR after discussing it with the dispatcher. The gas-n-go plan would have let us get out and around the line to the north by Green Bay, which was the plan. Secondary issues came up with maintenance and now it's become clear there is an issue with the NEO that is a software issue. I think if we hadn't had all those other issues none of this would have been an issue.

I'm not sure if given the chance to do it over I would divert somewhere other than GRR. It was practically clear skies and the weather was an hour away. I also knew there was only one divert on the ground there. The reason we moved from IND to GRR was the proximity of the weather, we just got unlucky with multiple MX issues.
 
SurferLucas said:
This just my honest “if I was faced with the same situation” take on it. Not to Monday morning QB your “in the heat of the moment” decisions. Given the information y’all seem to have been presented with, they all seem very sound/well thought out.

Me personally, I think once that second hold looked like it was happening, I’d have been making my escape plan. (Much like I assume yall did as well).

I “think” I’d have gone for DTW over GRR (not because it’s a major hub for my flavour of air line), but because I know GRR is gate constrained…and if push really came to shove, it’d be easier to find a gate to get on in DTW.

Again, this is the “30,000ft over view” with plenty of time to think, not faced with fuel issues/etc.

It’s good to see things like this back in the JC topics. We should all learn from each others experiences/situations.

Thanks for sharing it :)
Click to expand...
We never considered a larger airport because I knew we only had one other divert on the ground. What we didn't know was there was a broken airplane on our *only* gate. Having flown in and out of GRR I did not expect us to only have one gate. Certainly something to think about, but the information I have available to help me make my divert decision showed one divert only. I expected quick and easy.
 
bLizZuE said:
We never considered a larger airport because I knew we only had one other divert on the ground. What we didn't know was there was a broken airplane on our *only* gate. Having flown in and out of GRR I did not expect us to only have one gate. Certainly something to think about, but the information I have available to help me make my divert decision showed one divert only. I expected quick and easy.
Click to expand...
One thing I’ve noticed on my fleet at 3 Points Air Line…it’s a stressed topic that “get ahead of the other diverts”

(Again, not that it has anything to do with your situation…this is more just thinking out loud)

We recently had 2 flights from Mexico bound for the mothership, when it got hit by storms. Both diverted to a city in Alabama, with zero customs facilities. BHM was stormed out…but, there are 4 airports I counted that they overflew/could have easily gotten to within 20 mins…that had international facilities.

We also had a 330 divert to a small, rural WA airport that’s served by my old airline…couldn’t really put my finger on why they went there.
 
SurferLucas said:
One thing I’ve noticed on my fleet at 3 Points Air Line…it’s a stressed topic that “get ahead of the other diverts”

(Again, not that it has anything to do with your situation…this is more just thinking out loud)

We recently had 2 flights from Mexico bound for the mothership, when it got hit by storms. Both diverted to a city in Alabama, with zero customs facilities. BHM was stormed out…but, there are 4 airports I counted that they overflew/could have easily gotten to within 20 mins…that had international facilities.

We also had a 330 divert to a small, rural WA airport that’s served by my old airline…couldn’t really put my finger on why they went there.
Click to expand...
But it’s the Palm Springs of Washington!
 
SurferLucas said:
We also had a 330 divert to a small, rural WA airport that’s served by my old airline…couldn’t really put my finger on why they went there.
Click to expand...

I remember that one making the news up here! Was that the squall line that moved from PDX to SEA real fast and then just stagnated up here and shut the airport down for like an hour? I'm probably mixing up wx events, but it was total chaos when we checked in with SEA center that night. Fortunately (for us), we were headed to PDX to overnight so we just, like, switched to approach and landed. Amongst all the on-air commotion, I do remember it being widget who was the first to say the D word and head to Boise.
 
///AMG said:
I remember that one making the news up here! Was that the squall line that moved from PDX to SEA real fast and then just stagnated up here and shut the airport down for like an hour? I'm probably mixing up wx events, but it was total chaos when we checked in with SEA center that night. Fortunately (for us), we were headed to PDX to overnight so we just, like, switched to approach and landed. Amongst all the on-air commotion, I do remember it being widget who was the first to say the D word and head to Boise.
Click to expand...
It was a night of “in and out of CATIII”, and Capt was on first trip post OE (high mins). PDX was much the same.

PAE was not (at the time, I looked when I saw it was diverting)…and is perfectly capable of handling a 330.

Instead they went to YKM, and had to send a 321 to rescue the pax.

A Duty Pilot was in my charm school class, and he was just as shocked.
 
SurferLucas said:
It was a night of “in and out of CATIII”, and Capt was on first trip post OE (high mins). PDX was much the same.

PAE was not (at the time, I looked when I saw it was diverting)…and is perfectly capable of handling a 330.

Instead they went to YKM, and had to send a 321 to rescue the pax.

A Duty Pilot was in my charm school class, and he was just as shocked.
Click to expand...

I heard the Bus becomes unstartable if it ever winds up at the Boeing mothership, understandable :)
 
Honestly this seems like the safest place given the nature of a tornado is inside a contained shape with the extra added benefit of really small windows and seatbelts.

Granted this was John C Tune so not the exact situation as say a major 121 ramp, but it seems like the planes which are by nature an aerodynamic shape faired better than all the lose crap laying about the ramp.
IMG_1805.jpeg


I can’t imagine having enough real warning to effectively make a decision and then have the guy in 34C deplane (with their carryon) and make it to a sheltered location. Evacuating seems like the equivalent of screaming “we’re all doomed! Everybody run!” And just hoping the odds are in your favor.
 
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