PSA CRJ-700 AA midair collision

[Autothrust Blue]

I’m curious too. Though I would suspect, just from my own experience, that it’s possible that convo may have been something akin to “that’s just that helo that tower was talking to that is maintaining separation from us”, and attention gone back to landing. As the crew possibly couldnt see the helo anyway, and weren’t likely going to maneuver to get it in sight while lining up. All the above of which would be reasonable things, if they turn out to be fact.

I mean, again, we aren't supposed to maneuver based on TCAS azimuth alone, nor in response to a TA; I've watched a TCAS 'target' dance around the MFD/EHSI/TA-VSI frequently enough to know that's a bad idea not merely due to written prohibitions.

 

[derg]

I’ve seen ADS data on the ND do funny stuff as well, which is why I wish the YouTubers would stop using that data to extrapolate information.

Even worse into ICN.

 

[N826AW]

The real irony with all the staffing talk (which 100% needs to be said) is that DCA is one of the best staffed facilities in the NAS. They have something like 25 of 28 certified controllers. Staffing is not an issue at DCA.

Interesting. I asked about staffing during tower tour (not DCA) a while back and was surprised to hear they were pretty well staffed. The tour was around the time you were moving to PA so I was surprised at the answer.

 

[GolfChuck]

Staffing varies greatly facility to facility. Since I left the center, I have mostly been at facilities in a staffing position where we are staffed well enough that there isn't a ton of OT going around, but not well enough to ever get any "spot" leave. Also very likely that call-up OT doesn't backfill sick calls, because no one answers the phone. Ideally a properly staffed facility should be staffed 20% over staffing guildline (minimum desired staffing) numbers for the purposes of safety and morale.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Interesting. I asked about staffing during tower tour (not DCA) a while back and was surprised to hear they were pretty well staffed. The tour was around the time you were moving to PA so I was surprised at the answer.

Towers are generally easier to staff if for no other reasons theres much fewer positions so you need fewer people to begin with. DCA for example, 28 for 100%. N90 (minus EWR) is 226 for 100%. Some centers are north of 300. And once you get to the big tracons and centers, staffing can vary wildly inside the building by area. ZNY for example has some areas that are near 100% staffed and others that are 50%, but the staffing number is based on the building as a whole.

 

[Wardogg]

Towers are generally easier to staff if for no other reasons theres much fewer positions so you need fewer people to begin with. DCA for example, 28 for 100%. N90 (minus EWR) is 226 for 100%. Some centers are north of 300. And once you get to the big tracons and centers, staffing can vary wildly inside the building by area. ZNY for example has some areas that are near 100% staffed and others that are 50%, but the staffing number is based on the building as a whole.

And the FAA can’t just move people around accordingly? To plus up the lighter buildings?

 

[NovemberEcho]

And the FAA can’t just move people around accordingly? To plus up the lighter buildings?

You still have to certify in that new facility which is generally a multi-year process especially if it’s a different kind of facility or big difference in difficulty level. And for a facility to release someone to go somewhere else, with a couple exceptions, the releasing facility has to be at least at 85% staffing.

 

[derg]

You still have to certify in that new facility which is generally a multi-year process especially if it’s a different kind of facility or big difference in difficulty level. And for a facility to release someone to go somewhere else, with a couple exceptions, the releasing facility has to be at least at 85% staffing.

What’s the general sentiment behind the scope?

One of my good friends is married to an enroute controller and says by the time she has enough points/years/whatever to retire, she’s out.

Common?

 

[NovemberEcho]

What’s the general sentiment behind the scope?

One of my good friends is married to an enroute controller and says by the time she has enough points/years/whatever to retire, she’s out.

Common?

Most people I know plan to go as soon as they’re eligible. Only reason I’m planning to go to 56 now (barring an unforeseen financial windfall) is cause my daughter turns 18 when I turn 56

 

[ChasenSFO]

I mean, again, we aren't supposed to maneuver based on TCAS azimuth alone, nor in response to a TA; I've watched a TCAS 'target' dance around the MFD/EHSI/TA-VSI frequently enough to know that's a bad idea not merely due to written prohibitions.

Some Cessnas I've flown with TCAS that have wifi connections may show my iPad with connected foreflight as an imminent threat, usually at a bad time like lining up with the runway at SJC or something like that it'll show a same altitude target and start shouting instructions. If I followed them and tried to get away from the target, I'd probably get loss of separation with airliners. There are limitations. Lol.

 

[MikeD]

I mean, again, we aren't supposed to maneuver based on TCAS azimuth alone, nor in response to a TA; I've watched a TCAS 'target' dance around the MFD/EHSI/TA-VSI frequently enough to know that's a bad idea not merely due to written prohibitions.

I wouldn’t maneuver either based on a TA only. You could just as easily maneuver into traffic as you could maneuver away from it. There’s no knowing what one should be doing in this case.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I mean, again, we aren't supposed to maneuver based on TCAS azimuth alone, nor in response to a TA; I've watched a TCAS 'target' dance around the MFD/EHSI/TA-VSI frequently enough to know that's a bad idea not merely due to written prohibitions.

Of course. But if one gets a TA with a traffic, traffic aural, it’s probably at least worth looking in that direction to see if the target can be seen / visually acquired.

 

[🦈💜]

Some Cessnas I've flown with TCAS that have wifi connections may show my iPad with connected foreflight as an imminent threat, usually at a bad time like lining up with the runway at SJC or something like that it'll show a same altitude target and start shouting instructions. If I followed them and tried to get away from the target, I'd probably get loss of separation with airliners. There are limitations. Lol.

TCAS or TPAS?

I don't think there are single-engine recips with TCAS, though I could be wrong.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Some Cessnas I've flown with TCAS that have wifi connections may show my iPad with connected foreflight as an imminent threat, usually at a bad time like lining up with the runway at SJC or something like that it'll show a same altitude target and start shouting instructions. If I followed them and tried to get away from the target, I'd probably get loss of separation with airliners. There are limitations. Lol.

Is that TCAS or ADSB with ForeFlight?

 

[CFI A&P]

TCAS or TPAS?

I don't think there are single-engine recips with TCAS, though I could be wrong.

Could be TIS-B in a King stack equipped C172SP or G1000. Although, I don’t recall it ever giving RAs. You’d routinely get TAs during steep turn maneuvers when it saw its own shadow. Like Groundhog Day, except it would mean no more steep turns.

 

[///AMG]

Of course. But if one gets a TA with a traffic, traffic aural, it’s probably at least worth looking in that direction to see if the target can be seen / visually acquired.

They probably did. Hell, I got one on 2 mile final into SEA landing north a couple weeks back. Was probably just traffic merging onto final slightly behind my winglike for the right, but I never saw it. I'm PF and it's out my window and I'm hand flying, so it was a fairly cursory check. Cultural lighting out there is not good for seeing •, just like it wouldn't be in DC. I dunno. I am not a big believer in our ability to see and avoid with any consistency at night, especially with such a limited field of regard in a transport category airplane.

 

[Lawman]

They probably did. Hell, I got one on 2 mile final into SEA landing north a couple weeks back. Was probably just traffic merging onto final slightly behind my winglike for the right, but I never saw it. I'm PF and it's out my window and I'm hand flying, so it was a fairly cursory check. Cultural lighting out there is not good for seeing •, just like it wouldn't be in DC. I dunno. I am not a big believer in our ability to see and avoid with any consistency at night, especially with such a limited field of regard in a transport category airplane.

We’ve seen just how little and poorly one can see unaided vs aided.

Honestly the entire concept of purely visual on air traffic and SA through ifj voice comms is archaic when you look at the amount of information and sensor SA aiding that systems are capable of providing.

Think of the first time you looked through an HMD and saw the link icon of your wingman 4 miles away. What the hell are we doing thinking that ADSB on an IPad would provide the necessary SA to have prevented this crash. There is an immediate available COTS solution for this. The US government mandated cameras on the back of every car manufactured because people kept driving over their 6 year old backing out of the drive way. If we want to prevent this, but 2x ITDS sight assemblies on the nose of ever plane and give aural and visual cues to the flight crew.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ChasenSFO]

Is that TCAS or ADSB with ForeFlight?

I don't have the ADSB function enabled or paid for so...idk. The planes have actual TCAS. It happens a lot landing at SJC or doing low passes at NUQ but not much elsewhere, and not when ForeFlight isn't on. I'm not an avionics nerd, but the TCAS in the Cessnas I fly have conflict resolution audio. It'll both call out "traffic" and give instructions. Keep in mind some of these 172SPs I fly have VNAV. I don't use any of that crap, I don't think I've even touched the AP on a Cessna in many years but I get how it works.

 

[Roger Roger]

We’ve seen just how little and poorly one can see unaided vs aided.

Honestly the entire concept of purely visual on air traffic and SA through ifj voice comms is archaic when you look at the amount of information and sensor SA aiding that systems are capable of providing.

Think of the first time you looked through an HMD and saw the link icon of your wingman 4 miles away. What the hell are we doing thinking that ADSB on an IPad would provide the necessary SA to have prevented this crash. There is an immediate available COTS solution for this. The US government mandated cameras on the back of every car manufactured because people kept driving over their 6 year old backing out of the drive way. If we want to prevent this, but 2x ITDS sight assemblies on the nose of ever plane and give aural and visual cues to the flight crew.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Or you know, don’t run a helicopter route 100’ under final approach, because we’re not pulling people out of saigon

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Or you know, don’t run a helicopter route 100’ under final approach, because we’re not pulling people out of saigon

Yeah, but need to avoid the small arms fire in Anacostia.