Agreed, assuming I had the descent covered, I’d head straight in, in that case.
NoPT Question....
- Thread starter Shiftace
- Start date
Agreed, assuming I had the descent covered, I’d head straight in, in that case.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
Every time this situation comes up in real life for me, it has been in IMC, and I get an instruction like that half a mile from the fix. My habit is to read back "Cleared straight in RNAV XYZ approach" when it is ambiguous to me, but I'm pretty sure that's what they meant -- not sure that's the right thing to do or if it makes a difference. In a perfect world, I could ask. In the real world, the frequency is busy with them giving clearances for 3 or 4 other, busier, airports. And in the meantime, until I can ask, we have to fly in some direction. And I would rather be on the final course I'm already somewhat established on, instead of a hold I don't have loaded yet and will be making some sort of cowboy entry into.
I think the whole system would make much more sense if HILO course reversals required an explicit clearance in a radar environment.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
The regulatory answer is straightforward. In this situation, you are required to do the PT unless the controller clears you straight in. Depending on what I was flying and the conditions, I might ask for a straight in clearance. You might be successful but depending on the controller, you might have to insist because ATC is not supposed to clear you straight in from an FAF (except on a visual approach).
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Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
If I understand your question, being as this is a VOR-A approach being cleared to CHALK now makes it the IAF as published. If you’re at 3500 you now have to do the hold and get yourself down to 3000 to start the final segment to the circling mins.
Shiftace
s***posting with decency. trolling with integrity.
what if you are at 3000? Not cleared straight in.
Do the PT to get lined up on final.
Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
Yeah without any other guidance CHALK is the iaf. being cleared direct to that from any direction tells me I’m starting the approach from there. Which would require the turn.
inigo88
Composite-lover
With the caveat that I gave you the wrong answer last time (which was humbling
) the ATC manual FAA order 7110.65 has some good examples of phraseology and what they're supposed to expect the pilot to do in these circumstances.Here are some relevant quotes from 4-8-1 Approach Clearance Procedures:
c. Except for visual approaches, do not clear an aircraft direct to the FAF unless it is also an IAF, wherein the aircraft is expected to execute the depicted procedure turn or hold-in-lieu of procedure turn.
d. Intercept angles greater than 90 degrees may be used when a procedure turn, a hold-in-lieu of procedure turn pattern, or arrival holding is depicted and the pilot will execute the procedure.
e. If a procedure turn, hold-in-lieu of procedure turn, or arrival holding pattern is depicted and the angle of intercept is 90 degrees or less, the aircraft must be instructed to conduct a straight-in approach if ATC does not want the pilot to execute a procedure turn or hold-in-lieu of procedure turn. (See FIG 4-8-3).
PHRASEOLOGY-
CLEARED STRAIGHT-IN (type) APPROACH
NOTE-
EXAMPLE-
- Restate “cleared straight-in” in the approach clearance even if the pilot was advised earlier to expect a straight-in approach.
- Some approach charts have an arrival holding pattern depicted at the IAF using a “thin line” holding symbol. It is charted where holding is frequently required prior to starting the approach procedure so that detailed holding instructions are not required. The arrival holding pattern is not authorized unless assigned by ATC.
“Cleared direct SECND, maintain at or above three thousand until SECND, cleared straight-in ILS Runway One-Eight approach.”
REFERENCE-
AIM, Para 5-4-5, Instrument Approach Procedure Charts.
AIM, Para 5-4-9, Procedure Turn and Hold-in-lieu of Procedure Turn.
RNAV Application:
h. For RNAV-equipped aircraft operating on unpublished routes, issue approach clearance for conventional or RNAV SIAP including approaches with RF legs only after the aircraft is: (See FIG 4-8-4).
- Established on a heading or course direct to the IAF at an intercept angle not greater than 90 degrees and is assigned an altitude in accordance with b2. Radar monitoring is required to the IAF for RNAV (RNP) approaches when no hold-in-lieu of procedure turn is executed.
EXAMPLE-
Aircraft 1 can be cleared direct to CENTR. The intercept angle at that IAF is 90 degrees or less. The minimum altitude for IFR operations (14 CFR, section 91.177) along the flight path to the IAF is 3,000 feet. If a hold in lieu of procedure turn pattern is depicted at an IAF and a TAA is not defined, the aircraft must be instructed to conduct a straight-in approach if ATC does not want the pilot to execute a hold-in-lieu procedure turn. “Cleared direct CENTR, maintain at or above three thousand until CENTR, cleared straight-in RNAV Runway One-Eight Approach.” The pilot is expected to proceed direct CENTR and execute the hold-in-lieu of procedure turn.
In light of these examples, and since you are proceeding direct CHALK as the IAF (not the FAF), a lap in the hold would be expected unless you hear the words "Cleared straight-in approach".