QX2059 Jumpseater tries to shutdown engines

Richman said:
I do find it interesting that a ton of psychotic episodes and/or manifestation of serious psychological issues in males happens around 17-19 years of age. That would correlate (which is NOT causation) to the first time that some individuals have relatively "easy" access to harsher "recreational pharmaceuticals", that is, stuff other than your typical California ditch weed
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It’s also the first time one leaves a relatively structured environment and is faced with the real world. Which personally I think would be a far more likely reason than more access to drugs, because at least when I was in high school in 98-02, access to any kind of drug you wanted was pretty damned easy. Hell it was easier to get heroin in high school than alcohol, let alone all the kids with adderal prescriptions who preferred to sell them than take them.
 
JDean3204 said:
One of the better reads concerning this incident. So much truth to that article
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I actually teared up at the last few lines. I think I literally say the exact same things half the time I'm coming home. Just want to do normal, low-stress standard stuff like netflix and chill or play D&D and cuddle with popcorn or something.
 
Richman said:
Deviation from thread drift is not approved at this time....

I do find it interesting that a ton of psychotic episodes and/or manifestation of serious psychological issues in males happens around 17-19 years of age. That would correlate (which is NOT causation) to the first time that some individuals have relatively "easy" access to harsher "recreational pharmaceuticals", that is, stuff other than your typical California ditch weed.

I watched a kid that fit the stereotype perfectly. Good smart kid, pianist (coincidence), honor student, etc. First semester in school and blammo, he can't even care for himself now. Just like that (snaps fingers). The theory was that he got ahold of something bad and had a reaction to it, but of course no one would fess up.

Stands to reason if he got ahold of it, others did as well, but didn't have the same reaction. Almost acts like a near fatal allergic reaction.

My working theory is that there is some kind of latent genetic disposition to certain forms of hallucinogens. Think of it as a psychophysiological circuit breaker (and not those little 1/2 amp ones, like the big honking 150 amp Airbus variety). As long as the individual steers clear, they'll be fine. But if they run across them, then the breaker pops, and it's far worse that the typical individual reaction. You could make the argument that the disparity between male and female occurrences is due to the gene sitting on a sex-linked chromosome, like color blindness. The only problem is you can't reset the breaker, maybe it's more like a current limiter/fuse.

As always, I'm talking out of my ass, but I'd be interested in Max's take.
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Bipolar, psychosis, schizophrenia, et al. It's not uncommon for the first break to occur anywhere from the age of 16 to the mid 20's. But its also not uncommon for the onset to occur anywhere up to and including the age of 40. There can be early warning signs kicking off around puberty called prodrome. These changes generally happen gradually or it can happen all at once, they can vary. There are three phases early, acute and recovery.

I think that I told this story here before. There was a kid he was 18, high school senior had a good life, a girlfriend. Straight A student had been accepted to the university of his choice. Then bam over the course of a week he just started acting weird and became more bizarre. Was catatonic, stripping off his clothes and walking outside into the street. He was hospitalized days before his senior prom. It was all over for him, he didn't get to walk at his graduation. College was probably canceled. His onset was so abrupt and rapid. He was ultimately deemed acutely and persistently disabled as a result. He was on high dose of antispychotics, like five or more drugs with powerful doses. His family and his girlfriend would come and visit him and leave crying. They didn't recognize him, he changed. It was a sad case. He discharged into the care of his parents so I don't know what happened post discharge. Hopefully he was able recover and at least live some soft of semblance of his life.

As for drug induced psychosis. We used to see that a lot back in the early days of Spice Bath Salts and meth of course. We're not seeing it so much anymore. But in most cases people were able to recover with some Haldol shots and ativan. But there were those few cases were they just didn't come back from it and were psychotic, no matter what they were given. It could be due to genetics, or the amount of drugs that they took. Not too sure.
 
So we're all pretty aligned that the current policy with Aeromedical is bad, that it needs reform. We're also pretty much aligned that depression (or depressive tendencies, at least) is pretty widespread, right?

What does reform look like?

The refrain I keep hearing is that pilots fear the loss of income whilst dealing with FAAs glacial pace of processing, and that three years (which seems to be the average) is untenable. It seems like MECs can and should start looking at special forms of STD/LTD to deal with this scenario to help protect pilots coupled with the FAA fixing bureaucratic inertia, to start.

What else?
 
Maximilian_Jenius said:
Bipolar, psychosis, schizophrenia, et al. It's not uncommon for the first break to occur anywhere from the age of 16 to the mid 20's. But its also not uncommon for the onset to occur anywhere up to and including the age of 40. There can be early warning signs kicking off around puberty called prodrome. These changes generally happen gradually or it can happen all at once, they can vary. There are three phases early, acute and recovery.

I think that I told this story here before. There was a kid he was 18, high school senior had a good life, a girlfriend. Straight A student had been accepted to the university of his choice. Then bam over the course of a week he just started acting weird and became more bizarre. Was catatonic, stripping off his clothes and walking outside into the street. He was hospitalized days before his senior prom. It was all over for him, he didn't get to walk at his graduation. College was probably canceled. His onset was so abrupt and rapid. He was ultimately deemed acutely and persistently disabled as a result. He was on high dose of antispychotics, like five or more drugs with powerful doses. His family and his girlfriend would come and visit him and leave crying. They didn't recognize him, he changed. It was a sad case. He discharged into the care of his parents so I don't know what happened post discharge. Hopefully he was able recover and at least live some soft of semblance of his life.

As for drug induced psychosis. We used to see that a lot back in the early days of Spice Bath Salts and meth of course. We're not seeing it so much anymore. But in most cases people were able to recover with some Haldol shots and ativan. But there were those few cases were they just didn't come back from it and were psychotic, no matter what they were given. It could be due to genetics, or the amount of drugs that they took. Not too sure.
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Thanks Max, your perspective is always fascinating.

I suspect the grey area between the “code” and the “hardware” of the brain will continue to perplex us well into the future.
 
killbilly said:
The refrain I keep hearing is that pilots fear the loss of income whilst dealing with FAAs glacial pace of processing, and that three years (which seems to be the average) is untenable. It seems like MECs can and should start looking at special forms of STD/LTD to deal with this scenario to help protect pilots coupled with the FAA fixing bureaucratic inertia, to start.

What else?
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It's not just the speed. It's that unless you're issues fit in a very narrowly defined box, there is no coming back.
 
killbilly said:
So we're all pretty aligned that the current policy with Aeromedical is bad, that it needs reform. We're also pretty much aligned that depression (or depressive tendencies, at least) is pretty widespread, right?

What does reform look like?

The refrain I keep hearing is that pilots fear the loss of income whilst dealing with FAAs glacial pace of processing, and that three years (which seems to be the average) is untenable. It seems like MECs can and should start looking at special forms of STD/LTD to deal with this scenario to help protect pilots coupled with the FAA fixing bureaucratic inertia, to start.

What else?
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A tremendous start would be cutting the exclusionary periods for pilots to take drugs which are already approved. Most people who suffer from depression aren’t suicidal. Let someone who isn’t suicidal try on an SSRI for (whatever interval of time is appropriate - a month? I don’t know), if there are no side effects and the person is improving, let them go back to work.

Hell, for that matter, a more basic thing would be to show pilots they can go to therapy without risk of losing it all. That might capture more people than would be captured by allowing them to use SSRIs.
 
BobDDuck said:
It's not just the speed. It's that unless you're issues fit in a very narrowly defined box, there is no coming back.
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This is a pretty accurate assessment, but not just for mental issues. I’ve known a few people who have made it through some very challenging medical events and fully recover. Events that normally have either a very high mortality rate or leave permanent disability.

Because they are such outliers, they have a very hard time getting cleared. It takes a long, long time, if ever. At SJ, the drop off time was extended to 15 years, and there are still people who won’t make it back. We also eliminated the cutout for mental disabilities, so that’s a good start as well.
 
killbilly said:
So we're all pretty aligned that the current policy with Aeromedical is bad, that it needs reform. We're also pretty much aligned that depression (or depressive tendencies, at least) is pretty widespread, right?

What does reform look like?

The refrain I keep hearing is that pilots fear the loss of income whilst dealing with FAAs glacial pace of processing, and that three years (which seems to be the average) is untenable. It seems like MECs can and should start looking at special forms of STD/LTD to deal with this scenario to help protect pilots coupled with the FAA fixing bureaucratic inertia, to start.

What else?
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Unless a doctor deems you a danger to yourself or others you should get to keep flying.

Waiting period to make sure no adverse effects to medication if taken.
 
roundout said:
A tremendous start would be cutting the exclusionary periods for pilots to take drugs which are already approved. Most people who suffer from depression aren’t suicidal. Let someone who isn’t suicidal try on an SSRI for (whatever interval of time is appropriate - a month? I don’t know), if there are no side effects and the person is improving, let them go back to work.

Hell, for that matter, a more basic thing would be to show pilots they can go to therapy without risk of losing it all. That might capture more people than would be captured by allowing them to use SSRIs.
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(Bolded emphasis mine) This is where I think some real progress can be made. The FAA has been pretty clear that counseling itself - especially if it's situational (marriage counseling, for example) isn't necessarily reportable. They tend to get very interested when there is a diagnosis (and if I'm incorrect here, please correct me) of depression, and there are some clear parameters around who can actually make an authoritative diagnosis on that.

Not all cases of depression need medication - like @BobDDuck mentioned upthread, the dimensions of the box are entirely too narrow.

Y'know, you'd think with all the staffing shortages, Management would be investing in/pushing for reform here to deepen their benches....
 
killbilly said:
(Bolded emphasis mine) This is where I think some real progress can be made. The FAA has been pretty clear that counseling itself - especially if it's situational (marriage counseling, for example) isn't necessarily reportable. They tend to get very interested when there is a diagnosis (and if I'm incorrect here, please correct me) of depression, and there are some clear parameters around who can actually make an authoritative diagnosis on that.

Not all cases of depression need medication - like @BobDDuck mentioned upthread, the dimensions of the box are entirely too narrow.

Y'know, you'd think with all the staffing shortages, Management would be investing in/pushing for reform here to deepen their benches....
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probably cheaper to pay OT/premium/green slips/whatever than to pay the lawsuits if they get one wrong and Germanwings happens again.
 
killbilly said:
(Bolded emphasis mine) This is where I think some real progress can be made. The FAA has been pretty clear that counseling itself - especially if it's situational (marriage counseling, for example) isn't necessarily reportable. They tend to get very interested when there is a diagnosis (and if I'm incorrect here, please correct me) of depression, and there are some clear parameters around who can actually make an authoritative diagnosis on that.

Not all cases of depression need medication - like @BobDDuck mentioned upthread, the dimensions of the box are entirely too narrow.

Y'know, you'd think with all the staffing shortages, Management would be investing in/pushing for reform here to deepen their benches....
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Problem being that our healthcare system makes money on diagnosis codes. If you want insurance to pay for any mental health treatment you’ll wind up with a diagnosis. Allegedly there are therapists aware of the bass-akward system who kindly take cash to avoid unnecessary complications. 🇺🇸
 
Maximilian_Jenius said:
In a previous post in this thread, I think that I said that full treatment isn't just strictly medication. It's a two fer of medication management to help regulate either the low/high dosage of neurotransmitters in the brain. Then its recommended, but not mandatory that they seek treatment with a therapist/psychologist to learn/recognize coping skills. I work in acute involuntary treatment, where we get patients on 5150 holds for observation now called COE (Court Order Evaluation). If after 72 hrs. it's deemed, that they require a higher level of care, they're petitioned and put on COT (Court Order Treatment), where we can force meds on them involuntarily. They HAVE to take their meds inside our hospital, or out. If they're SMI (Severely Mentally ill) then they have a clinic and a case worker who checks up on them weekly. And they have to attend meeting at their clinic and come in for regular checkups and also receive their monthly 28 day long-acting shot. Failure to do that and a warrant is put out for their arrest and they brought back to anyone of the level 1 acute care hospitals in the valley (not jail) to have meds forced on them. Most stop treatment immediately after discharge, miss an appointment and they always come back. Good for business, but bad for them. The revolving door of forced treatment becomes their life. I've been in the biz for 15 years, its new faces every week but a lot of old faces, its sad, really.

In our setting we're just about shocking the brain back to normal with a regimen of meds. Again, we don't offer counseling. We have a guy in our care right now. He was an artist a painter. The meds make him numb, he can't paint, has no creativity on the meds. So, he gets off of them. Then the police pick him up because he's walking down Van Buren butt ass naked high on meth. Same thing with this 28 yr. old kid, a pianist who's schizophrenic. He can't play the piano on the meds, so he stops just so he can feel again. And he's also frequently back. For others the guys mostly they're unable to get an erection on the meds and the want to have sex with their spouse, or anyone and not be limp all the time. So, they get of the meds get on Crytal meth and f-k without abandon and they're out in the world out of control acting like A Beautiful Mind. There's LOTS of reasons why they get off of their meds, most often its meth, because it makes them feel more alive, than their meds do. I am sorry to hear about your brother though, that was sad to read.

Anyways I don't want to get this thread further off the tracks with psych stuff. So back to shrooms I guess.
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My brother didn't have any substance abuse issues. He was clean as a whistle when they found him (except for the carbon monoxide). I think those drugs have a place in helping people, the fact that they're not combined with mandatory therapy scares me. You say you have involuntary patients that are given these drugs and then released without having gone through the recommended therapy, are you surprised when these repeat offenders show up again? I'm not blaming you, I think whatever entity you want to think controls the mental health of our society has gone off the rails and the people making the most profit do not have the best interests of their consumers at heart. We could change this if the lobbyists weren't so powerful, that's the bureaucracy I've been talking about, it's not just pharmaceuticals, it's defense, infrastructure and energy. Our system has been compromised by our elected officials profiting from lobbyists, how do so many elected officials end up with wealth that far exceeds their salary? There's a word for it, it's corruption. It's not a new concept, it's as old as any government in history. I don't know how to fix it, the people making the rules are profiting on the backs of their constituents and that's what they wanted when they asked you to elect them. Easy money...
 
killbilly said:
So we're all pretty aligned that the current policy with Aeromedical is bad, that it needs reform. We're also pretty much aligned that depression (or depressive tendencies, at least) is pretty widespread, right?

What does reform look like?

The refrain I keep hearing is that pilots fear the loss of income whilst dealing with FAAs glacial pace of processing, and that three years (which seems to be the average) is untenable. It seems like MECs can and should start looking at special forms of STD/LTD to deal with this scenario to help protect pilots coupled with the FAA fixing bureaucratic inertia, to start.

What else?
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I think it's gone beyond bad.... it's barbaric. It's suffering in silence or struggling with out of date treatment rather than being proactive about health, and it isn't just mental health care because the alternative is apocalyptically bad.
 
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