Challenger 300 Turbulence Death - Prelim Released

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Yes. But only corporate pilots seem to screw the pooch in Cherokee_Cruiser's in the eyes in front of his narrowed mind.

I not even defending the actions of these guys. I have 1,000's of hours in the plane and have gotten training at just about every training facility on the western hemisphere. The training for the Challenger is very good everywhere. The Challenger is also a very simple and forgiving airplane. You just have to listen to what it's telling you.

Oh please. 91/135 Corpie accidents and incidents don’t even come close to 121 incidents/accidents. I never said 121 doesn’t screw up. I call them out too, as you saw in the United 777 OGG thread where some on JC had a meltdown.

Ask yourself, how did @Jimmy_Norton call this one correctly before the facts were out……

"Hey Susan, the trim has been acting weird lately, I think we should write it up"

"No Brady, lets wait till we get back to the hangar, I don't want to get stuck here"

The next day.....

"Oh •, we just killed someone fighting that trim issue!!!!"

"Tell them it was severe turbulence!"

Reason 938028342350985238 I don't miss corporate........

Sorry dude, but by definition 91 and 135 are less relaxed than 121. Still not stepping on a Corpie jet.

 

[KLB]

Oh please. 91/135 Corpie accidents and incidents don’t even come close to 121 incidents/accidents. I never said 121 doesn’t screw up. I call them out too, as you saw in the United 777 OGG thread where some on JC had a meltdown.

Please go sit in a corner and color. Must you come around and rouse about in all topics just because...? Just go and sit down somewhere. I'm sure you can be having family time or something rather than troll today.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Are you talking about like getting a lot of level offs and then a new altitude in busy airspace so you’re jockeying the thrust a lot? Like when @NovemberEcho calls you right as the autopilot starts to capture with your next altitude, which is 2000’ higher, and repeats until FL180?

I do it on purpose

 

[Roger Roger]

I do it on purpose

I’m convinced ADSB shows you the exact moment the autopilot starts to capture and flags you to give the next altitude

 

[MikeOH58]

Please go sit in a corner and color. Must you come around and rouse about in all topics just because...? Just go and sit down somewhere. I'm sure you can be having family time or something rather than troll today.

I suggest the corporate community just ignores and doesn’t engage. He is as polarizing as the other guy who wears the tag most hated member and by no means would be recognized as a worthwhile contributor to the aviation community or someone anyone strives to emulate. He is a number in this industry whose respect and sphere of influence is limited to new hire FO’s and new members of this website who don’t know better. That is all, now let’s move on.

 

[arkflyr]

If you want to have a look at what +4.7 and -3.2Gs does to an airplane here is that Falcon that had it happen back in the 90s.

OLYMPIC AIRWAYS flight OAL3838 - Aviation Accident Database

Olympic Airways flight OAL3838 was performing a government flight to Bucarest. Had a pitch feel failure, which caused pitch oscillation and vertical accelerations from +4,7 to -3,26 g.

www.aviation-accidents.net

That airplane was repaired and returned to service. Falcons, they are built like brick poophouses.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I could totally see how this could happen to even good pilots who couldn’t separate the perceived pressures from Mr Big and doing a good enough job to not kill someone.

Last minute call outs to the airport, someone telling you “oh the airplane is good to go” when you show up. Then being afraid to stop the operation and admit to Mr Big: “hey this went bad we need fo shut the airplane down and hard reset to make it work.”

Now you kill Mr. Bigs wife trying to make him happy and you could go to jail for it.

The airline vs corporate discussion is also dumb. Corporate is worse only because the holes in the cheese line up more often entirely because people are allowed to put themselves in that position.

When I was at SkyWizzle in training they showed us videos of the guys that took off without fueling and almost crashed. A CRJ almost crashed into a mountain near EUG, they had to limit their altitude because they kept stalling airplanes… it was a disaster. The only real difference is they weren’t trying to hide it from Mr Big.

My current shop is arguably worse. Mostly due to our horrible “checking department.” That has reenforced the bad habits of “doing things fast from memorization” that are leading to things like unnecessary engine shutdowns because of a non existent fuel leak.

The cowboy mentality is out of control. I had to threaten to walk off an aircraft more than once to get de-iced. Now I have learned to shape the discussion of getting an ice check to mention that “if you check it and say it’s good and take responsibility for it, then I’m ok with it.” It’s because I’m tired of arguing with guys who don’t want to get deiced and I only have a short time before I’m the captain asking my FO nicely to “please call iceman for an ice check.” Instead of ranting about wasting the companies money and time and claiming the “ice check” employees have no idea what they are doing.

Guys set off the EGPWS so much in SE AK we can’t fly VFR anymore. Which to me was a relief. Because it was so much extra work to get a VFR flight plan and then hold on for dear life while some guy rocketed out of WRG off runway 28 headed for a mountain and asked for flaps up too early because “my record for WRG to SIT is 7 minutes.”

All the astronauts on the Challenger died a horrible fiery death because of a perceived pressure to make Ronald Regan happy about blasting a teacher into space and the perception their space vehicle was unreliable. So NASA goes out of limits on temperature for launch. Intentionally. Multiple times. At the NASA flight department.

If you don’t have the hubris to admit this could be you that’s when I worry about you. We are all capable of this. Myself included.

Just last week, I had to wait 8 hours at the airport because the inbound crew taxied into a ladder. Contract maintenance was removing the lower winglets. I told the FAs and the captain “If they ask me to extend I should say no I’m too tired.” So when the captain got the call “will you extend”, the captain asks me and I start babbling “well I do hate deadheading and I don’t feel that bad.” One of the FAs looks at me and says: “YOU SAID YOURE TOO TIRED TO BE SAFE.”

That snapped me out of it. “Sorry I’m too tired to extend.”

Sleeping in a hotel was an excellent decision and the next day the captain and I agreed we would have been too tired.

No one is safe from themselves.


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The legend is still alive. And LOL at a FA running you around.

The fuel leak misdiagnosis is happening because people can’t do simple fuel burn math while looking ONLY at the TOTAL FOB amount.

Been flying at 121 airlines since 2007. Zero fatigue calls. I can manage my rest properly. That said, you can get annoying crap at hotels like an alarm but I’m the kinda guy who has the rare skill of being able to fall back asleep right away if I woke up at night, and the ability to zone out external noises to sleep. Either one can or you can’t. Since I can, it helps tremendously.


AS has one of the lowest duty day scheduled for pairings in the industry (I believe 12:30). You can correct me if I’m wrong. I try to combine trips and get the 12:30 duty error message.

You’re a FO now, I’d say 90% of FOs have no real clue about what secondary ice inspection complete is. They’re so used to saying not required. Now they think if we are deicing, they can say complete. No. It’s “not required” if deicing is planned! I will say this, there are many times AS is deicing while everyone is going. At one point, with 12 deg centigrade in SEA and no snow/ice, clear blue skies. Secondary ice inspection, CSFF allowances, it’s ALL in the book. Yet, very misunderstood.

Your stories of CAs trying to kill you are BS. And the proof will be when you’re in the left seat, and the stories will be the FOs are trying to kill me. “Everyone else is at fault but me.”

And the training department and checking here is 200% better than whatever chit Corpie operations you worked for.

 

[ArcherII]

If you want to have a look at what +4.7 and -3.2Gs does to an airplane here is that Falcon that had it happen back in the 90s.

OLYMPIC AIRWAYS flight OAL3838 - Aviation Accident Database

Olympic Airways flight OAL3838 was performing a government flight to Bucarest. Had a pitch feel failure, which caused pitch oscillation and vertical accelerations from +4,7 to -3,26 g.

www.aviation-accidents.net

That airplane was repaired and returned to service. Falcons, they are built like brick poophouses.

Well, it's the only bizjet to almost sink a freaking frigate.

Edit: it was it's father the Falcon 50.

 

[MikeD]

They ran the wrong procedure. Prim Stab Trim Fail was not an associated CAS according to the report. Add this to the long list of screw ups that day. These guys are toast.

they’ll probably have a class date at the big 3 soon.

 

[MikeD]

Oh please. 91/135 Corpie accidents and incidents don’t even come close to 121 incidents/accidents. I never said 121 doesn’t screw up. I call them out too, as you saw in the United 777 OGG thread where some on JC had a meltdown.

Heard those guys went for retraining and eventually got canned. True?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Heard those guys went for retraining and eventually got canned. True?

Yikes! I don't know to be honest.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

This was caused by their actions, following the wrong QRH procedure:

"The airplane immediately pitched up to about 11° and reached a vertical acceleration of about +3.8g."



But what's the over/under on the following being all 100% PIO....................


"The airplane subsequently entered a negative vertical acceleration to about -2.3g. The airplane pitched up again to about 20° and a vertical acceleration of +4.2g was recorded. The stall protection stick pusher activated during this pitch up; subsequently, vertical acceleration lowered to about +2.2g which was followed by a cutout of FDR data."

 

[CFI A&P]

Oh please. 91/135 Corpie accidents and incidents don’t even come close to 121 incidents/accidents. I never said 121 doesn’t screw up. I call them out too, as you saw in the United 777 OGG thread where some on JC had a meltdown.

Ask yourself, how did @Jimmy_Norton call this one correctly before the facts were out……



Sorry dude, but by definition 91 and 135 are less relaxed than 121. Still not stepping on a Corpie jet.

There is some merit to non-standardized operators and accident rates. However, if it is was so dangerous why do the world’s billionaires and millionaires get around by private aircraft ?

Sure, pressure from the passenger is often factor in decision making, but not always.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

There is some merit to non-standardized operators and accident rates. However, if it is was so dangerous why do the world’s billionaires and millionaires get around by private aircraft ?

It’s not “so dangerous.” It’s still a hell of a lot safer than driving (which is incredibly dangerous). But most of all, it’s about convenience and efficiency. Warren Buffett can’t spend hours hanging around airports for security, delayed flights, connections, etc. His time is literally worth hundreds of thousands of dollars an hour.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I suggest the corporate community just ignores and doesn’t engage. He is as polarizing as the other guy who wears the tag most hated member and by no means would be recognized as a worthwhile contributor to the aviation community or someone anyone strives to emulate. He is a number in this industry whose respect and sphere of influence is limited to new hire FO’s and new members of this website who don’t know better. That is all, now let’s move on.

It's not trolling. It's calling out just what is. It is NOT saying that I wouldn't fly with you or KLB, I'm sure you guys are great guys and I'd have zero problems flying a 73 with you both. It's the system that you currently find yourselves in that I have a problem with. It's an overall system failure, not an individual pilot-failure. The system made these guys what they are and do what they did. The same system that set up the G4 at BED for nearly the same reasons.

Flew with a CA who told me about his wife and her time at Boeing Corporate jets, flying out of Gary. The stories were horrendous. Like a good ol boys club trying to throw her under the bus. Somebody else's mistakes being bowtied and deliverd on her. If this stuff happens at one of the largest/best Corporate company/jobs, I can only imagine what goes on crap ass operations like southern Florida based Corpies.


And, it's also the kinds of operations you can do. Circle to land non-VMC conditions? No thanks. While the final reports aren't out, this approach with an ensuing stall/spin was likely the cause for the crashes at Gillespie Field and at the one Reno airport (Gulfstream I think).

 

[Roger Roger]

There is some merit to non-standardized operators and accident rates. However, if it is was so dangerous why do the world’s billionaires and millionaires get around by private aircraft ?

Because in absolute terms the risk is still fairly low, and they don’t care about it. For them the convenience of no TSA, no other pax, schedule on their terms, and the ability to flex their wealth for other rich douchebags offsets it.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

The legend is still alive. And LOL at a FA running you around.

The fuel leak misdiagnosis is happening because people can’t do simple fuel burn math while looking ONLY at the TOTAL FOB amount.

Been flying at 121 airlines since 2007. Zero fatigue calls. I can manage my rest properly. That said, you can get annoying crap at hotels like an alarm but I’m the kinda guy who has the rare skill of being able to fall back asleep right away if I woke up at night, and the ability to zone out external noises to sleep. Either one can or you can’t. Since I can, it helps tremendously.


AS has one of the lowest duty day scheduled for pairings in the industry (I believe 12:30). You can correct me if I’m wrong. I try to combine trips and get the 12:30 duty error message.

You’re a FO now, I’d say 90% of FOs have no real clue about what secondary ice inspection complete is. They’re so used to saying not required. Now they think if we are deicing, they can say complete. No. It’s “not required” if deicing is planned! I will say this, there are many times AS is deicing while everyone is going. At one point, with 12 deg centigrade in SEA and no snow/ice, clear blue skies. Secondary ice inspection, CSFF allowances, it’s ALL in the book. Yet, very misunderstood.

Your stories of CAs trying to kill you are BS. And the proof will be when you’re in the left seat, and the stories will be the FOs are trying to kill me. “Everyone else is at fault but me.”

And the training department and checking here is 200% better than whatever chit Corpie operations you worked for.

I was grateful that an FA reminded me I had said I’d be too tired to be safe. I was too tired to make that decision. I would have been awake for almost 24 hours with zero opportunities for rest when we got to a gate in SEA. Not a good idea. I’m human, I hate deadheads and I want to go home. Anyone can make a bad decision.

Ice checks aren’t hard. You can just call for it in most bases and they tell you over the radio. Why anyone wants to work outside of that system is beyond me. Yet I see it at least once a month. I come back from a walk around and mention to the captain we need an ice check. I don’t carry a ruler to determine 1/8” of frost below the wing. So just call Iceman. Easy. The odd captains disagree and tell me the ice check people don’t know what they are doing. “Well Sir if you want to look at it and you take responsibility then I won’t call Iceman.”

In less than a week, I won’t have to threaten to not fly an airplane because an FO refuses to de-ice when I am a captain. The time that occurred (obviously reverse seating) was in ANC in January 21. A mechanic had already said we need to be de-iced and I had already gotten on a ladder to determine that myself. Captain refused to believe either of us. It’s embarrassing but here we are. I have had to say “you can check it it’s your responsibility” to two different captains in the last two months. You’d think it wouldn’t be that way but here we are…

The point of what I am posting is that there are problems everywhere and we all need to be diligent to stick to procedures. In any form of aviation even Nasa space flight. Yet you are arguing with me about it.

This only seems to be an issue for you.


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[Cherokee_Cruiser]

It’s not “so dangerous.” It’s still a hell of a lot safer than driving (which is incredibly dangerous). But most of all, it’s about convenience and efficiency. Warren Buffett can’t spend hours hanging around airports for security, delayed flights, connections, etc. His time is literally worth hundreds of thousands of dollars an hour.

Because in absolute terms the risk is still fairly low, and they don’t care about it. For them the convenience of no TSA, no other pax, schedule on their terms, and the ability to flex their wealth for other rich douchebags offsets it.

Yup.

Last year at my virtual airline (not real), I flew my first celebrity in years. A Kardashian, her kids, nanny, and the spouse Travis Barker. Why? Kardashians always fly private jets. ALWAYS.

But Barker flew a Corpie in 2008 that went off the runway at CAE. Both pilots died, bodyguard died, 2 survived and one of them was Barker. (The other survivor commit suicide about a year later). Travis basically stopped flying, period. Now with the Kardashians he started to fly again - but he stuck to 121 airlines.

There's a reason Travis Barker flew on a 121 major airline instead of a Corpie. And I can't say I blame him.

 

[KLB]

I was grateful that an FA reminded me I had said I’d be too tired to be safe. I was too tired to make that decision. I would have been awake for almost 24 hours with zero opportunities for rest when we got to a gate in SEA. Not a good idea. I’m human, I hate deadheads and I want to go home. Anyone can make a bad decision.

Ice checks aren’t hard. You can just call for it in most bases and they tell you over the radio. Why anyone wants to work outside of that system is beyond me. Yet I see it at least once a month. I come back from a walk around and mention to the captain we need an ice check. I don’t carry a ruler to determine 1/8” of frost below the wing. So just call Iceman. Easy. The odd captains disagree and tell me the ice check people don’t know what they are doing. “Well Sir if you want to look at it and you take responsibility then I won’t call Iceman.”

In less than a week, I won’t have to threaten to not fly an airplane because an FO refuses to de-ice when I am a captain. The time that occurred (obviously reverse seating) was in ANC in January 21. A mechanic had already said we need to be de-iced and I had already gotten on a ladder to determine that myself. Captain refused to believe either of us. It’s embarrassing but here we are. I have had to say “you can check it it’s your responsibility” to two different captains in the last two months. You’d think it wouldn’t be that way but here we are…

The point of what I am posting is that there are problems everywhere and we all need to be diligent to stick to procedures. In any form of aviation even Nasa space flight. Yet you are arguing with me about it.

This only seems to be an issue for you.


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The industry has changed a lot since you've been over here. The shortage is so bad over here that I could make a very good living (we're talking legacy pay) off of doing contract if I'd like to. There is no worry or pressure about keeping a job anymore. I get flyers in the mail everyday about job openings. If a pilot doesn't like a position or a client gives them crap, they can simply say "no" and there's not much a company can do about it because there aren't crews to replace them with.

I honestly have never felt this pressure anyways. The rules are the rules. My career and life aren't worth getting someone into ASE on a crappy day. I'd simply take them to Eagle or Rifle and wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Hell, I usually had the decision made on what alternate to use and had their ground transportation on the way well over an hour out. ...and that was when I was 135. No amount of yelling and being upset by them would change that. It's even easier now because there simply isn't to replace a crewmember who says "no".

This splits both ways because that also means that crappy pilots can't be easily replaced and continue to skate on by.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I was grateful that an FA reminded me I had said I’d be too tired to be safe. I was too tired to make that decision. I would have been awake for almost 24 hours with zero opportunities for rest when we got to a gate in SEA. Not a good idea. I’m human, I hate deadheads and I want to go home. Anyone can make a bad decision.

There's no way your duty day was 24 hrs, so if you were awake for 24 hrs at that point, you probably had a commute or some other external factor that forced you to be up long before your check in time. But good on you for calling out, I wouldn't want a tired/checked out FO on a challenging approach somewhere.

Ice checks aren’t hard. You can just call for it in most bases and they tell you over the radio. Why anyone wants to work outside of that system is beyond me. Yet I see it at least once a month. I come back from a walk around and mention to the captain we need an ice check. I don’t carry a ruler to determine 1/8” of frost below the wing. So just call Iceman. Easy. The odd captains disagree and tell me the ice check people don’t know what they are doing. “Well Sir if you want to look at it and you take responsibility then I won’t call Iceman.”

Are conditions inside/outside of CSFF? You have tools to make decisions, not just require an ice check each and every single time. There's a reason we have criteria for greater than 4 deg outside, fuel temp greater than 16 deg, no vis moisture. As long as we meet our criteria, I'm okay with departing using this standard and the visual vantage point check. You can call for an ice check, and I personally would not stop you. But I can see some CAs just going by that criteria and saying nah, we good. I have myself done the Secondary Ice Inspection procedure with no falling precip by checking both wings from the appropriate vantage point (like the book says). My question is, since you can do that too, and you see no contamination on the wing, then what's wrong?

In less than a week, I won’t have to threaten to not fly an airplane because an FO refuses to de-ice when I am a captain. The time that occurred (obviously reverse seating) was in ANC in January 21. A mechanic had already said we need to be de-iced and I had already gotten on a ladder to determine that myself. Captain refused to believe either of us. It’s embarrassing but here we are. I have had to say “you can check it it’s your responsibility” to two different captains in the last two months. You’d think it wouldn’t be that way but here we are…

The point of what I am posting is that there are problems everywhere and we all need to be diligent to stick to procedures. In any form of aviation even Nasa space flight. Yet you are arguing with me about it.

This only seems to be an issue for you.


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If it's that bad, stick to your guns - politely. And follow up with Pro Stans (although don't expect much).

Good luck, I'm surprised you're going in now. They must be catching up with the backlog. Have a good attitude, DON'T argue and you'll nail it.