Morbid curiosity. Upgrade times?

[Ian_J]

At my shop new hires are getting widebody FO right out of training, so I could easily hold it if I wanted in nearly any base here. On the 75/76 I’d be a bottom line holder and on the triple and the 78 I’d be at the bottom of the reserve stack just above the new hires. I have to add, we probably have the worst reserve rules of any legacy. What you guys said above is dead on. I’m choosing not to be a widebody FO because of backside of the clock flying, weirdo captains, and terrible reserve rules. I can also hold narrow body captain on any coastal base but choose not to because of terrible reserve rules. From where I sit, narrow body FO life at right around 35% seniority is a pretty sweet spot to be in. I basically pick my schedule and layovers. I’ve never flown a redeye and the only non-commutable trips I get are because I picked them due to a cool layover.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

It's funny, I listened to your description of flying with these old codgers, and I said "yeah, much rather be a NB captain and not deal with all that."

Don't you find similar attributes among FOs? Those political and social belief systems seem very common among pilots at large, regardless of which seat they occupy.

 

[BobDDuck]

Don't you find similar attributes among FOs? Those political and social belief systems seem very common among pilots at large, regardless of which seat they occupy.

For sure. The absolute most outwardly racist guy I've ever flown with (manage to drop three n bombs before I told him that was enough of that) was an IRO. But, while it may be terrible CRM, a captain can always shut down a conversation.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

For sure. The absolute most outwardly racist guy I've ever flown with (manage to drop three n bombs before I told him that was enough of that) was an IRO. But, while it may be terrible CRM, a captain can always shut down a conversation.

I thank you for speaking up. Several here have said that when that stuff comes up they just go silent and ignore it. I'm of the thought that whenever, where ever behaviors like that are presented. They need to be addressed immediately. Again, I thank you for not being a chameleon in the right seat and drawing a line and shutting that sh-t down.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Don't you find similar attributes among FOs? Those political and social belief systems seem very common among pilots at large, regardless of which seat they occupy.

My experience was that FOs tend to wait until the captain says something terrible before they start, because they aren’t running the show and they‘re trying to be the chameleon for an easy trip. Captains, on the other hand, frequently feel they have free reign to say whatever bat guano crazy nonsense pops into their MAGA hat clad head.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

My experience was that FOs tend to wait until the captain says something terrible before they start, because they aren’t running the show and they‘re trying to be the chameleon for an easy trip. Captains, on the other hand, frequently feel they have free reign to say whatever bat guano crazy nonsense pops into their MAGA hat clad head.

I hope you're right. We'll find out in a few weeks. [emoji51]

 

[BobDDuck]

I hope you're right. We'll find out in a few weeks. [emoji51]

My biggest shock when I upgraded last gig was how lazy a lot of FOs were. I had always assumed that everyone worked at least as hard as I did (if not harder, because I thought I was pretty lazy as an FO). Boy was I wrong.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

My biggest shock when I upgraded last gig was how lazy a lot of FOs were. I had always assumed that everyone worked at least as hard as I did (if not harder, because I thought I was pretty lazy as an FO). Boy was I wrong.

You're not the first person I've heard that from. What sorts of things are they failing to do?

 

[poser765]

My biggest shock when I upgraded last gig was how lazy a lot of FOs were. I had always assumed that everyone worked at least as hard as I did (if not harder, because I thought I was pretty lazy as an FO). Boy was I wrong.

Really? I as only a captain for a couple of years, but I only had one or two FOs that I’d call lazy. Most of the ones I flew with just wanted get through the trip without making things harder than they need to be. But I was also at an airline with a lot of young people. At 36 I am as the old man. They still had a lot of optimism to look forward to and little airline crap to look back on.

 

[poser765]

Mid to senior WB FO vs junior NB captain depends on three things, as in most cases the pay is relatively similar (due to higher credit vs min guarantee on reserve).

First, how's your quality of life? 12 days off with a bad commute to go sit reserve with a bad set of work rules is very different than 12 days off sitting long call at him with a 20 minute drive to the airport. Maybe more diffucult is weighing commuting cross country to a set schedule with 17 days off vs. driving to reserve call outs 18 days a month.

Second, can you deal with large time zone shifts? WB flying tends to come standard with overnight flying. Some companies have a lot of that on the narrowbody side, so it may not matter which seat you are in so much in some cases.

And third, can you deal with old, annoying, racists, homophopic, and misogynistic captains? Sadly, as you get more senior in the right seat of of WB and able to hold the good trips, the captains you will be flying with tend to be more senior and older too. There are lots of older guys who are absolutely awesome. There are also a lot of them who aren't. Your patience with ignorance will often be severely tried. The good news is that normally you'll be augmented so you'll get a break from them when you are upfront with the other guy and when you go on your break.

Personally, with the type of flying we do, I'm much happier flying a 10 hour leg in the right seat and then getting 24 to 48 hours on the ground in an interesting place before flying home, than being the king in a NB jet getting 10 hour overnights after a full day's work.

I fairly recently made the transition from 757/767 FO to 320 CA. I live in base and don’t have (or plan on having) kids. I’m happy with the earlisih upgrade decision but also sometimes do miss the widebody flying.

I would suggest trying to do some international before you upgrade if it’s something you are at all interested in. Getting to see new cities and over the ocean flying is pretty cool. The drawbacks are lots of backside of the clock flying, I never really got used to starting work at 8pm and flying all night. Having a break was nice but I still had trouble with sleep and the time changes. The 757/767 fleet was nice because you could throw in some domestic if the international was wearing you down. That being said when I did months of only Europe I felt I was never really 100% on my days off. This obviously varies person to person.

The story about old curmudgeonly crews is also true, and could get a little old. Especially if they are disagreeable and had mentally retired 10 years ago. Helping someone that drives you insane limp across the Atlantic and back makes for a long few days.

I feel way less stressed going to work as a domestic captain. There is something to be said for not having to play chameleon 14 days a month. At about 80% and living 20 min from the airport I bid reserve with weekends off. This month I’m only going to have 3 nights away from home and make considerably more than I did as an FO. This compensation gap would be narrowed if it was compared to a true widebody like the 330/350.

Commuting is the big variable.WB FO schedules are almost exclusively commutable while my current seat is literally 0% commutable on both sides. Not living in base would take this pleasant upgrade experience and make it a living nightmare. The variety is what makes working for a major network carrier so great. I say give international a go and see how you like it. Then from there you can either upgrade quickly or vegitate in the right seat for the next 20 years. Neither Is a bad way to make a living.

to both of you. Thanks. This was exactly what I was looking for. It certainly didn’t tell me which option to decide when the time comes buts definitely information I did not have. lol seeing as how I haven’t even flown to me of my employers airplanes for real yet I’ve got some time to figure it out and a lot to learn about the workplace. This will definitely help.

 

[mwflyer]

I hope you're right. We'll find out in a few weeks. [emoji51]

Congratulations!

 

[BobDDuck]

You're not the first person I've heard that from. What sorts of things are they failing to do?

Keep in mind that this was during the 250 hour wonder time period. The most common thing was texting/FBing on their phone right up until push, and not doing any loading of the box, getting weather or stuff like that. Also it was pretty common that they had no interest in looking at the release, checking downline weather, or being engaged in any MX issues that might arise. It was pretty common to hear "well, the don't pay me to do that sort of stuff and when they do, I will." Guys seemed to think that upgrade school would teach you all the secrets of being a captain, not realizing that you were supposed to be learning all of that stuff while sitting in the right seat.

 

[Crockrocket94]

You're not the first person I've heard that from. What sorts of things are they failing to do?

Dude, Ive had captains look me straight in the eye and say Thank you for doing XXY. And I respond "Well its my job" and many say that most guys are too lazy to do XXY.

It happened many times. Airline pilots are indeed lazy, but the extremes are huge apparently.

Let us know

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

My biggest shock when I upgraded last gig was how lazy a lot of FOs were. I had always assumed that everyone worked at least as hard as I did (if not harder, because I thought I was pretty lazy as an FO). Boy was I wrong.

Yup. This. So much this.


Not to toot my own horn, but I remember getting compliments from CAs when I was FO. And one CA in particular (that I flew for a long time and respect) said to me straight, "you are going to be disappointed once you get in this seat. You're going to see most others aren't like you."

Now CAs for 4 yrs, I see what he meant.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Don't you find similar attributes among FOs? Those political and social belief systems seem very common among pilots at large, regardless of which seat they occupy.

But you have a position as a CA to shut that down. Me, I can play along with either side (left or right). I'll never make it political first. But some do. Often, it starts off with something everyone can relate to. Like school work, homework, teacher stuff, etc, and then dwelves into politics. And usually, they aren't wrong.

You almost never get a guy that just starts ranting off on the left or the right. It's usually a story of some type that then morphs towards politics as the story continues - often for where the fault lies. I got no issues with that kinda convo. So as it long as it sticks to the original point and we don't just go off on a long winded rant.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

@ZapBrannigan you got the upgrade right? When you going for training, or are you already done?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Check your PMs.

 

[Kingairer]

Don't you find similar attributes among FOs? Those political and social belief systems seem very common among pilots at large, regardless of which seat they occupy.

Something to the effect of “I don’t do politics up here even if it seems likely we would agree on most.” But that really shouldn’t be necessary if they have any awareness of what’s going on. There are typical “feelers” thrown out and if you don’t take the bait it rarely would go that direction.

 

[CFIscare]

Don't you find similar attributes among FOs? Those political and social belief systems seem very common among pilots at large, regardless of which seat they occupy.

I’ve been in the left seat since the beginning of summer at a southern base of a southern headquartered airline, and I have yet to have a politically charged conversation in the cockpit. Not saying it will never happen, but it is such a better job.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I’ve been in the left seat since the beginning of summer at a southern base of a southern headquartered airline, and I have yet to have a politically charged conversation in the cockpit. Not saying it will never happen, but it is such a better job.

Well you should work on that then.




Try LGB or MAGA. Great conversation starters.