Boeing pushes for Max10 exemption

[jhugz]

I’ve always been a Boeing guy, but coming from the 74/76 and now learning the 73, this thing is a dumpster fire. Boeing had the technology to do this airplane right but instead I have to play train conductor with the pneumatic panel so that Southwest didn’t have to retrain their pilots. Want to know if a valve failed? Why put an EICAS in when you can have dim or bright blue lights? Busy with a go around? Too bad, your AP just disconnected. Good luck have fun. Not a fan.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I’ve always been a Boeing guy, but coming from the 74/76 and now learning the 73, this thing is a dumpster fire. Boeing had the technology to do this airplane right but instead I have to play train conductor with the pneumatic panel so that Southwest didn’t have to retrain their pilots. Want to know if a valve failed? Why put an EICAS in when you can have dim or bright blue lights? Busy with a go around? Too bad, your AP just disconnected. Good luck have fun. Not a fan.

It’s a real man’s plane. You guys with your 747/767 experience where there’s caviar and a 4 course meal and a plane that pretty much flies itself, while you decide if you want to do the sudoku or go for the CAs bait on abortion rights.

 

[tcco94]

Boeing vs Airbi... ...

Meh, you 121 drivers make me chuckle with your religious fervor regarding Boeing vs Airbi.

Ever seen a "new" Cessna jet? Each one has particular, but weirdly-placed similarities to most of its predecessors. The asymmetric parallelism of "new" Cessna jets is a direct derivative of how many extra parts Textron had left over in the warehouse after building all their previous jet models.

Why would I know anything about corporate jets? Show up to work, fly my airplane, go home and don’t think about airplanes for a week.

We already know corporate jets are nicer, have way better avionics, blah blah blah. Corporate bros always let us know their technology is way better.

 

[jhugz]

It’s a real man’s plane. You guys with your 747/767 experience where there’s caviar and a 4 course meal and a plane that pretty much flies itself, while you decide if you want to do the sudoku or go for the CAs bait on abortion rights.

The damn metroliner I used to fly had a pseudo-EICAS system. This is just embarrassing.

 

[Skåning]

I’ve always been a Boeing guy, but coming from the 74/76 and now learning the 73, this thing is a dumpster fire. Boeing had the technology to do this airplane right but instead I have to play train conductor with the pneumatic panel so that Southwest didn’t have to retrain their pilots. Want to know if a valve failed? Why put an EICAS in when you can have dim or bright blue lights? Busy with a go around? Too bad, your AP just disconnected. Good luck have fun. Not a fan.

The Guppy is a massive POS. Zero redeeming qualities. 25ish hours in it so far after 2000 in the Airbus, miss it every flight!

 

[Inverted]

I am so sad that I am going to have to fly it. I am already missing the Bus.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

The Guppy is a massive POS. Zero redeeming qualities. 25ish hours in it so far after 2000 in the Airbus, miss it every flight!

 

[trafficinsight]

I'm liking it just fine.

The climb rate is beefy and it takes turbulence like a champ.

 

[tcco94]

I'm liking it just fine.

The climb rate is beefy and it takes turbulence like a champ.

By taking it like a champ you mean like going off-roading with a Toyota Corolla where you will feel every bump in your back, sure man. I like roller coasters, but not against my own will….

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Buncha whiney spoiled Bus pilots with their tray tables and triple axis autopilots.

 

[trafficinsight]

By taking it like a champ you mean like going off-roading with a Toyota Corolla where you will feel every bump in your back, sure man. I like roller coasters, but not against my own will….

By that I mean doesn't make me uncomfortable in the slightest bumps.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Oh, it’s more than layout. Type counts, because cabin width is a factor. The A320 is infinitely more comfortable than the 737 because of cabin width alone.

I’ve been on super comfy and roomy 737’s and super cramped and uncomfy A320’s. The seat layout is by far the most important aspect. In fact, the most comfortable/roomy plane Ive been on (in coach) was a Turkish airlines domestic flight 737. Maybe because I’m tall rather than ah, portly, I find legroom rather than width to the be predominant factor in comfort level.

 

[inigo88]

And to a large degree, the A380 too.

I don't think Airbus ever broke even on the A380.

The A380 came to my mind as well as a cautionary tale of what happens when you take a risk designing something totally new, gamble on the direction you think the industry is going to go and then it goes a totally different way. I was holding off on commenting until reading up on actual numbers but this article presents a nice summary:

The Last A380 Just Rolled Off Airbus’ Production Line. It May Never Fly A Single Passenger.

With demand for widebody airliners extremely low due to the global pandemic, there's a chance the brand new superjumbo, ordered by Emirates, never carries a single paying passenger.

www.forbes.com

The last of the 242 A380s built rolled off the line in Toulouse in September 2020. But…

A380 production began in 2006 after a two-year delay and $25 billion in investment from Airbus. The company anticipated a market for up to 1,200 of its massive airliners capable of carrying up to 853 passengers.

Still, with a list price of $450 million and even factoring in heavy discounts, they likely still broke even and didn’t take a loss on the program. (Consider $25 billion investment divided by $200 million per aircraft (assumed discount) = 125 airplanes to break even.)

But they didn’t get close to the projected sales of 1200 aircraft they predicted in the mid 2000s.

Buncha whiney spoiled Bus pilots with their tray tables and triple axis autopilots.

It’s been fun being involved with/lurking JC as long as I have, because I remember when a lot of these guys were CFIs / freight dogs to regionals shouting “The Mitsi / Airnet Baron / Metroliner / Bro is all that is man!!!” Then after a stopover on the CRJ200/EMB145 everyone went to the Bus and it became:

But the reality is the Guppy is the most mass produced airliner in the world and it’s probably going to suck you in like a black hole at some point in your career, so buckle up and let it happen.

@jhugz is right though, it’s a mid-1960s airplane that has stayed 1960s to appease their customers’ training requirements. No reason the pneumatics panel on a Max should look the same as the pneumatics panel on a classic, but here we are.

 

[Ian_J]

I’ve always been a Boeing guy, but coming from the 74/76 and now learning the 73, this thing is a dumpster fire. Boeing had the technology to do this airplane right but instead I have to play train conductor with the pneumatic panel so that Southwest didn’t have to retrain their pilots. Want to know if a valve failed? Why put an EICAS in when you can have dim or bright blue lights? Busy with a go around? Too bad, your AP just disconnected. Good luck have fun. Not a fan.

You change shops?

 

[jhugz]

You change shops?

Yea have a globe on the tail now.

 

[Ian_J]

Yea have a globe on the tail now.

Welcome!

It’s not the most modern airplane, but you’ll have the opportunity for some great trips and quick movement.

 

[MikeD]

I'll agree that Boeing stretched the 737 way past it's intended design. As for improvements, Boeing made all of its major improvements to the 737, as the NG model, not the MAX. The new wing gave them more range and it could fly higher, faster than the classic 737's. So I've read. The 737 300/400/500 (so I've read and been told) couldn't do the 3-4 hr transcons that the NG's and MAX's do. And they couldn't 410 it like the NG's/MAX's can under the right conditions. @tcco94 calls me a fanboy. But having flown neither upfront, I actually like the 320 series better. I was never really a big 737 fan. Growing up it was always the 727, 757 & 767's that I liked. Later the 787 & 777.

Anyways I appreciate the education and not a rebuke. Telling me to stick to the CFI corner section.

The Classics and Jurassics are capped at FL370 for the older wing. The Classics can easily do a transcon, up to even 4.5 to 5 hours. We get those regularly, but like tcco said, why would you want to? The Jurassics, on the other hand, need a fuel stop for a transcon, with their Jt8s.

 

[MikeD]

The A340 was a hedge against Pratt and Rolls getting their • together. You may notice that the A330 and A340 look a lot alike and have gobs of commonality.

That is because the PW4000 100-inch and the Trent 700 weren't certified (for whatever reasons -- maybe relative performance? -- there has never been much interest in the warmed-over CF6 engine option). This was also a time when ETOPS was not the norm. So, they built an A330 with four A320 engines, which would not be subject to any external delays or route restrictions. Then the marketing people got their hands on it.

To my knowledge, the "4 Long Haul" thing didn't come up until the A340-500/-600 as a marketing response to the 777's success. And yeah, I suspect that program only about broke-even for its relatively low development cost.

A number of A340s that aren’t that old, sitting across from our hangar and in the scrapping area. They’ll probably all be taken apart within the next month.

 

[MikeD]

Hell, the AF and the Navy are still flying re-engined 707s! And, by most accounts, they're still terrific birds!!! Better than ever!

While the USAF did that with the -135 series, KC/RC, etc, with CFM motors; they never did that with the E-3 or E-8 series, leaving the JT8s on those, for some reason.

 

[Minuteman]

While the USAF did that with the -135 series, KC/RC, etc, with CFM motors; they never did that with the E-3 or E-8 series, leaving the JT8s on those, for some reason.

"Oh, well, see, we're gonna be replacing those platforms with the E-10 in a couple of years so..."

My guess of the thinking is that JSTARS and AWACS aren't usually range/endurance-restricted because of aerial refuelling. I'm guessing those aircraft never hit MZFW, so the main benefit of a newer engines (newer than the JT3) might be access to more runways. Why not do that with the cheapest engine possible?