Hard to believe. With that pay rate, I figured they were flooded with apps. Everyone says there is no pilot shortage, just a shortage of pay. They took care of that problem.
AA W/O’s get massive pay raise
- Thread starter mwflyer
- Start date
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Complete side bar.....can someone explain to me intelligently the difference between PBS and line bidding? And why one might be more desirable than the other? I've personally heard differing arguments for both, but it is a bit like listening to robots argue in beeps at this point.
Skåning
Well-Known Member
Both are just pairing delivery systems, how you get your monthly trips. With line bidding you get all of it given to you in one chunk. Maybe some great two day trips in there but some garbage too. It's whatever your seniority can hold and the union (or company) built the lines with variety or not. With PBS you get individual trips assigned to you (that your seniority can hold).
So if you like all two day Mauis and can hold them, boom there you go. A lot less work getting what you want with PBS versus line bidding that usually requires lots of time bidding, trading, and manipulating of your schedule to get something palatable.
Disclaimer: This was a simplified answer and there are nuances to both and work rules/contract language make a huge difference. Eskimo has one of the most garbage line bidding systems of any airline. No pay protection with trip touching and trading windows that are ineffective.
Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
A friend of a friend supposedly got one. Applied about 3 days ago.
ZapBrannigan
If it ain’t a Boeing, I’m not going. No choice.
The company likes PBS because it is able to construct a line with no overlap conflicts.
My company has line bidding. So let's say I have a week of vacation. I bid a line for the month that has a 4 day trip that touches the first day of that vacation week, and one that touches the last day of that vacation week. Because it creates a conflict, those trips drop with full, or partial pay.
So now my one week of vacation is 14 days. Add a few days off before and after each of those 4 day trips I originally bid and now that one week of vacation actually frees up 20 days!
Line bidding allows you to turn one week of vacation into 3, at higher pay, even for the most junior of pilots.
Same with training events... or month to month overlap. Any conflict that you bid will necessarily cause drops that pilots learn to leverage to improve their pay, quality of life, or both.
That's why only a handful of airlines still have line bidding. The company is desperate to get rid of it.
Incidentally, if I only want two day trips like Skaning was talking about, I have the ability to sort lines based on that criteria. So while lines won't be constructed with my desired type of trip, I can use filters and sorts to at least stack the deck in my favor. Big airlines with big domiciles filled with lots of lines improve the odds.
At WN line bidding is a line in the sand. There's nothing the company can offer, no dollar amount that is worth abandoning line bidding.
SFCC/UND
Well-Known Member
I prefer line bidding. At UPS on the 74 we do a 6 and 12 month AQP. So I try and overlap my training with a trip. When I do that, that trip drops from my schedule. Scheduling will try and restore us. But I've been lucky and gotten 2 to 5 days extra off. Also same goes vacation. I've been able to take 2 weeks and turn it into 6 weeks off.
Any bidding system (including PBS) is only as good as your work rules.
When I upgraded, we had line bidding plus SAP. For those that might be unfamiliar with this system, we would bid a line of trips (published in a bid packet), then attempt to modify that line using SAP - "Schedule Adjustment Process". Any unused trips or dropped trips ended up in a pool, and you could pick up, drop, or trade trips in the pool to improve your schedule. Any leftover trips ended up on coverage lines.
As a new captain, I was on reserve for several years and never got a chance to use this system. The line holders really seemed to like it. Later I worked coverage lines. These weren't much fun because they consisted entirely of trips left over from SAP. It was like eating garbage for a whole month.
Our current bidding system is PBS. I really like it. You basically "build your own line" by specifying what KIND of trips you want (early start, weekends off, maximum number of legs a day, credit value, etc.). It's still a seniority-based system, so what you get is highly dependent on where you sit on the seniority list. I've always preferred to work weekends, so I generally get a very nice line.
As noted above, line bidding offers some advantages with respect to vacation. At many airlines (including mine) we have to bid vacation a YEAR ahead of time. PBS is a better bidding system if you just need a few days off for something that comes up on "shorter" notice. Some of our pilots and flight attendants have figured out how to work a "two weeks on, two weeks off" schedule using PBS without taking any vacation.
When I upgraded, we had line bidding plus SAP. For those that might be unfamiliar with this system, we would bid a line of trips (published in a bid packet), then attempt to modify that line using SAP - "Schedule Adjustment Process". Any unused trips or dropped trips ended up in a pool, and you could pick up, drop, or trade trips in the pool to improve your schedule. Any leftover trips ended up on coverage lines.
As a new captain, I was on reserve for several years and never got a chance to use this system. The line holders really seemed to like it. Later I worked coverage lines. These weren't much fun because they consisted entirely of trips left over from SAP. It was like eating garbage for a whole month.
Our current bidding system is PBS. I really like it. You basically "build your own line" by specifying what KIND of trips you want (early start, weekends off, maximum number of legs a day, credit value, etc.). It's still a seniority-based system, so what you get is highly dependent on where you sit on the seniority list. I've always preferred to work weekends, so I generally get a very nice line.
As noted above, line bidding offers some advantages with respect to vacation. At many airlines (including mine) we have to bid vacation a YEAR ahead of time. PBS is a better bidding system if you just need a few days off for something that comes up on "shorter" notice. Some of our pilots and flight attendants have figured out how to work a "two weeks on, two weeks off" schedule using PBS without taking any vacation.
L-16B
Well-Known Member
If it’s the same/similar SAP we had at airways it was worth its weight in gold. As a junior lineholder I was able to get every weekend off every single month.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
It was similar, except as originally written, it occurred prior to any reserve coverage being written into the equation. The first Christmas, every single line holder could drop the holiday. Obviously some of the bigger holes got filled on over time.
The funny thing is, I left before it was implemented so I never got to see it work first hand.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
I was in a presentation this week from RAA's attorney who kept pointing to pay raises as the solution - which I called her out on. As long as you're expecting kids to secure $100K flight school loans without any training subsidy from mainline carriers, you're not going to do anything to fix the pipeline.
This is true.
CFIT99
I'm probably commenting ironically...
that's exactly what I told my buddy at one of the WO'ed...200k a year isn't worth the lose of 2 years of seniority (possibly 2000-4000 pilots) which includes holidays, weekends, upgrades, wide body and being furlough fodder.
But then, you know… “Pilot Math/Psychology Spectrum”. Much like the “I can’t afford the pay cut to go to UPS types” you fly with but certainly have their applications in.
chrisreedrules
Master Blaster
1.75B over 2 years is the estimated cost of this for AA. That should terrify current and aspiring AA pilots. Never mind the fact that AA management offered APA pilots a 4% raise just prior to agreeing to this pay raise for the WOs. Seems wild to be hostile like this towards labor in the current bargaining environment. But hey, if anyone knows how to whipsaw its AA.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
That 1.75b number is meaningless without knowing how much it would cost them for the regional feed to collapse.
chrisreedrules
Master Blaster
Thats the whole reason this happened. The American wholly owneds approached APA and seniority numbers were discussed. APA was not interested. And with the eye-watering attrition it was clear that AA’s very business model was/is in jeopardy. There’s more here that I won’t post publicly. Either way it’s a loss for APA Pilot’s the way I see it.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
APA ego and short-sightedness? Never! 
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
Yeah, definitely a hit for mainline. The AA balance sheet is already scary enough, as you hinted to. Just wondering how bad the bailout is gonna be.