Morbid curiosity. Upgrade times?

To answer the question, at SouthernJets, I think it’s three years?


Don’t get me started on “I’m upgrading for a raise’ — it’s not the regionals.

I made more as a mid-seniority 330 FO than I did my first few years as a low seniority 320 captain and had more days off.

A decade as a mid- to high seniority widebody FO will earn more than a low seniority captain for the same.

I’m senior AF as a 320 captain now but (a) I’m lazy (b) the LCP gig pays way more (hourly) but I have less schedule flexibility

First, folks should upgrade because they want to be a captain, not for the money.

Second, I talk with guys that keep telling me they won't upgrade because "tHeY mAkE mOrE mOnEy As An Fo!!!!!"

Except I'm always having this conversation with them in the crashpad while they're waiting around to pick up a premium pay trip, and when you dig a little deeper, they're only home a few days per month.
 
First, folks should upgrade because they want to be a captain, not for the money.

Second, I talk with guys that keep telling me they won't upgrade because "tHeY mAkE mOrE mOnEy As An Fo!!!!!"

Except I'm always having this conversation with them in the crashpad while they're waiting around to pick up a premium pay trip, and when you dig a little deeper, they're only home a few days per month.

Technically correct is the best kind of correct!
 
First, folks should upgrade because they want to be a captain, not for the money.

Second, I talk with guys that keep telling me they won't upgrade because "tHeY mAkE mOrE mOnEy As An Fo!!!!!"

Except I'm always having this conversation with them in the crashpad while they're waiting around to pick up a premium pay trip, and when you dig a little deeper, they're only home a few days per month.

I don’t make anywhere near the numbers some folks are throwing around here for WB FO, but I’m lazy and have never picked up a draft trip in my entire time at my current shop. The only time I have gotten time and a half is when the plane breaks and I’m stuck somewhere, it’s never been willful.

Fly the schedule and go home. I’ll upgrade when I can hold a schedule I feel like flying.
 
I didn’t want to upgrade until the birthdays started coming a lot faster and I began to realize how many fewer years were ahead, compared with behind. Lots of guys medical out before they reach the finish line… so could be even fewer years. Then I started thinking long term disability pays more in the left seat than the right. Certainly want to be in the left seat in the event of a merger too.

All of the sudden a 3 hour commute to the coast seems doable, if not desirable. I might regret it when it actually happens. If so, can always downgrade. For now, it’s all academic. Hundreds of people will make their choice before I get the chance. Hopefully before I turn 50. :confused:
 
All of the sudden a 3 hour commute to the coast seems doable

1635347517610.gif


I say that as someone about to commute 3 hours to the coast because I upgraded.
 
Then I started thinking long term disability pays more in the left seat than the right.

Perhaps most are like this but at least some are simply based on past earnings. One legacy does a look-back of the best rolling 12 months of the past 36, and the percentage is based off of that.

Certainly want to be in the left seat in the event of a merger too.

I've heard this before and I'm not sure I follow the logic of it.

Is it for the purposes of seniority integration? That airline A has captains at xx DOH, and airline B only had captains at xx DOH, and so airline A gets a bit of a seniority boost at that DOH range?

Because if that's what it is, then as long as other pilots are captain near or lower than one's seniority, then they would be lifted by that effect without necessarily being a captain themselves. I mean, they could be out on long term disability re-cuping from whatever, and they're still going to be put on a new seniority list between the two pilots that were above and below them on their own company's list -- there will just be some other new names scattered throughout.

Now, for the purposes of the above effect working in the case of a seniority list integration, if someone is the first to be captain at their seniority aka "the plug" then I could see that making sense for the feeling of skewing some line in a hypothetical merge scenario -- but if there are already captains junior to oneself I think they'd already be doing the heavy lifting in that category, should merge occur.
 
Perhaps most are like this but at least some are simply based on past earnings. One legacy does a look-back of the best rolling 12 months of the past 36, and the percentage is based off of that.



I've heard this before and I'm not sure I follow the logic of it.

Is it for the purposes of seniority integration? That airline A has captains at xx DOH, and airline B only had captains at xx DOH, and so airline A gets a bit of a seniority boost at that DOH range?

Because if that's what it is, then as long as other pilots are captain near or lower than one's seniority, then they would be lifted by that effect without necessarily being a captain themselves. I mean, they could be out on long term disability re-cuping from whatever, and they're still going to be put on a new seniority list between the two pilots that were above and below them on their own company's list -- there will just be some other new names scattered throughout.

Now, for the purposes of the above effect working in the case of a seniority list integration, if someone is the first to be captain at their seniority aka "the plug" then I could see that making sense for the feeling of skewing some line in a hypothetical merge scenario -- but if there are already captains junior to oneself I think they'd already be doing the heavy lifting in that category, should merge occur.

An additional reason you'd want to be a captain going into a merger is because you might not be able to hold it after the merger. This, of course, assumes no displacement bids.
 
You'll have to fill me in about how bad it is.
The easiest commute I ever did was ATL to LAX and TPA to LAX. Nobody was doing it back than so the jumpseat was always open, and because of red eyes both ways I could make early sign-ins and I could make a flight home even after a late finish.
 
This is my exact situation right now. Compared paychecks with the guy a few numbers above me who is a NB airbus captain. He makes about $200 more a month than I do, and has 4 to 5 less days off. No thanks.

What % on the NB airbus list do you have to be to hold day trips only?
 
What % on the NB airbus list do you have to be to hold day trips only?

The 321 doesn't do any regularly scheduled day trips. There are a few random charters and inter island flying subs, but those aren't normal. During 2020 it was flying inter island regularly, but I'm not sure how senior that went, and besides about half the category was on month to month paid leaves at that point.

The bigger issue now is that about 60% of the 717 flying is now 2 day trips, and all of the senior captains who were willing to make less money in exchange for being home every night, are bailing out for the airbus fleets figuring if they've got to stay in a hotel, they might as well get paid more for it.
 
First, folks should upgrade because they want to be a captain, not for the money.

Second, I talk with guys that keep telling me they won't upgrade because "tHeY mAkE mOrE mOnEy As An Fo!!!!!"

Except I'm always having this conversation with them in the crashpad while they're waiting around to pick up a premium pay trip, and when you dig a little deeper, they're only home a few days per month.

I know a LOT of FOs that were chomping at the bit to upgrade because if the money. However, we’re at very different carriers with somewhat different career path options

Most guys:


NB FO > WB FO > rehab > NB CA > WB CA > Retirement -50% > remarried to a stripper > lose another house and -50% of remaining retirement > South Florida 135 > grave
 
Last edited:
Perhaps most are like this but at least some are simply based on past earnings. One legacy does a look-back of the best rolling 12 months of the past 36, and the percentage is based off of that.



I've heard this before and I'm not sure I follow the logic of it.

Is it for the purposes of seniority integration? That airline A has captains at xx DOH, and airline B only had captains at xx DOH, and so airline A gets a bit of a seniority boost at that DOH range?

Because if that's what it is, then as long as other pilots are captain near or lower than one's seniority, then they would be lifted by that effect without necessarily being a captain themselves. I mean, they could be out on long term disability re-cuping from whatever, and they're still going to be put on a new seniority list between the two pilots that were above and below them on their own company's list -- there will just be some other new names scattered throughout.

Now, for the purposes of the above effect working in the case of a seniority list integration, if someone is the first to be captain at their seniority aka "the plug" then I could see that making sense for the feeling of skewing some line in a hypothetical merge scenario -- but if there are already captains junior to oneself I think they'd already be doing the heavy lifting in that category, should merge occur.

An additional reason you'd want to be a captain going into a merger is because you might not be able to hold it after the merger. This, of course, assumes no displacement bids.




I'll tell you why.

At VX/AS, the arbitrators called us "Red Circle Captains" and protected us. 5 years in duration from the SLI effective date (Dec 2018). So anyone a CA before the SLI came out is designated a Red Circle Captain and gets the following protection...

Say the economy collapses, business plan changed, etc, and now there are massive downgrades. I was a junior CA before the SLI and now get downgraded. On the combined list, lets say for this example there are 300 FOs senior to me who were FOs (obviously by choice).

Things looked bad, now everyone panicks and most want an upgrade ASAP (I assume this is where Southwest FOs are finding themselves, especially ones who skipped upgrade).

Now a new Captain upgrade vacancy bid opens. What happens?

With my Red Circle Captain designation, I get a "super priority" in that I will get a Captain award before one of those senior FOs does for the purposes of this bid award, even though I was junior, I was still a CA before the SLI came out. So the arbitrators protected that. The only stipulation is I have to put a CA bid in EVERY base in order to get this protection. The intent for red circle is, since I was a CA before the SLI became effective, I should now get reinstated to a CA spot before all those senior FOs who were FOs before the SLI date.

Hope that makes sense. It was strictly a protection made up by the arbitrators during the SLI. It hasn't played out because we've never had massive downgrades. All our Airbus reductions have been offset with Boeing vacancies so all red circle CAs were still CAs anyway. And now that we're almost 3 years into the SLI effective date, I doubt this red circle protection will kick in for anyone.

Every award that comes out, they also publish a list of Red Circle Captains. But I think it's pretty much a moot point now considering we had massive upgrade bids.


Hope that makes sense. So to summarize, absolutely it could help being a CA going into a SLI!
 
Obviously never done the widebody FO gig, but I was FO for 11 years and now CA for 3.

I'll take CA any day of the week. Being your own boss, setting up your own tone, not having to put up with any [insert touchy subject], etc, and the monetary aspects make it totally worth it. Eg, at our shop permanent disability gives you 50% of your wages for the previous 12 months. I'd rather be on the CA rate for that calculation if the unthinkable happens. And of course, just in case there are any future mergers/SLIs.
 
The easiest commute I ever did was ATL to LAX and TPA to LAX. Nobody was doing it back than so the jumpseat was always open, and because of red eyes both ways I could make early sign-ins and I could make a flight home even after a late finish.
I do TPA-LAX weekly now.

DAL has 1-2 a day, American has 1 a day, AS is starting up in Nov, and Untied is joining the party soon after. Minus the timezone destruction It could be worse.
 
Back
Top