At least 1 dead as plane with 7 aboard crashes into lake

[Murdoughnut]

The only difference between a cult and a church is popularity. Their shctick sounds very familiar to what I grew up around in Dallas, and the "mega church" craze that all of my classmates from high school eventually fall into when they reach the point in their lives where they'll throw money at people who tell them their lifestyle choices are good and godly.

These people were nuts by reasonable person standards. By the standards of many communities (including TN), it's par for the course.

 

[Beep]

The only difference between a cult and a church is popularity. Their shctick sounds very familiar to what I grew up around in Dallas, and the "mega church" craze that all of my classmates from high school eventually fall into when they reach the point in their lives where they'll throw money at people who tell them their lifestyle choices are good and godly.

These people were nuts by reasonable person standards. By the standards of many communities (including TN), it's par for the course.

I hate those places so much, not only for the screwed up reasoning they use, but also the fact that they hire off duty police officers to disrupt traffic so they can herd the morons in and out of their den of iniquity in order to ideologically self felate for the crowd in order to gain some perceived sense of superiority in their community.

 

[Richman]

I don't mind a little churching up, as long as it's the traditional small setting. A little friendship, go out, don't be bad, do good works, be nice to each other. Maybe enjoy a little hotdish.

I don't even mind a good fire 'n brimstone sermon. Not that it's going scare me into mending my evil ways or anything, I find the mechanical & performance aspects of rhetoric & liturgy fascinating.

One of THE best sermons I ever heard was in a small church WAY out in the mid-west, where the towns essentially consist of a railroad crossing, a grain silo and a bar. A woman Episcopal minister laid down the fire. Holy cow, could she preach, and she held my absolute attention. Based on her performance, I've come to think the denominations that exclude them are doing a gross disservice to their faithful by removing that talent pool.

But that goes for a lot of things.

 

[Murdoughnut]

I don't mind a little churching up, as long as it's the traditional small setting. A little friendship, go out, don't be bad, do good works, be nice to each other. Maybe enjoy a little hotdish.

I don't even mind a good fire 'n brimstone sermon. Not that it's going scare me into mending my evil ways or anything, I find the mechanical & performance aspects of rhetoric & liturgy fascinating.

One of THE best sermons I ever heard was in a small church WAY out in the mid-west, where the towns essentially consist of a railroad crossing, a grain silo and a bar. A woman Episcopal minister laid down the fire. Holy cow, could she preach, and she held my absolute attention. Based on her performance, I've come to think the denominations that exclude them are doing a gross disservice to their faithful by removing that talent pool.

But that goes for a lot of things.

Me too. One of my good friends is an Episcopalian preach (on the progressive side of things) and I got a lot out of his sermons when we were back in Florida.

My point on comparing churches and religious wasn't as much to condemn churches as it was to suggests that cults aren't really that different in many respects.

 

[zmiller4]

I don't mind a little churching up, as long as it's the traditional small setting. A little friendship, go out, don't be bad, do good works, be nice to each other. Maybe enjoy a little hotdish.

100% agree. Unfortunately a lot of mass-market evangelism eschews the “don’t be bad, do good works” for “just believe what we tell you”.

But not all by any means, and this is why I push back on our most vociferous anti-religion dude…I think there’s plenty of churches doing exactly what you’re describing.

I don't even mind a good fire 'n brimstone sermon. Not that it's going scare me into mending my evil ways or anything, I find the mechanical & performance aspects of rhetoric & liturgy fascinating.

Definitely. My wife—who I’ve been with for almost 15 years—was raised Pentecostal Holiness in rural NC, and I’ve been going to their church services for about that long. The only way I get through it is appreciating how brilliant the pastors’ performances are, from the language to the singing.

 

[Richman]

Definitely. My wife—who I’ve been with for almost 15 years—was raised Pentecostal Holiness in rural NC, and I’ve been going to their church services for about that long. The only way I get through it is appreciating how brilliant the pastors’ performances are, from the language to the singing.

Agreed. If I go see Star Wars, that doesn’t mean I’m a Jedi. Similarly, just because I sit in a pew doesn’t mean I buy into everything (or anything).

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The only difference between a cult and a church is popularity.

Truer words have never been spoken.

 

[melax]

Final report is out, Cause: spatial disorientation.

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/103165/pdf

It's kinda old, I don't know if we discussed the fate of this DPE.

FAA suspends examiner who approved pilot in fatal crash into Percy Priest Lake

The Federal Aviation Administration has suspended a local pilot from being able to perform checkrides with other pilots while investigators continue to look into the fatal jet crash that killed seven members of a Brentwood church.

www.newschannel5.com

NTSB docket:

NTSB Docket - Docket Management System

data.ntsb.gov

 

[ahw01]

Final report is out, Cause: spatial disorientation.

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/103165/pdf

It's kinda old, I don't know if we discussed the fate of this DPE.

FAA suspends examiner who approved pilot in fatal crash into Percy Priest Lake

The Federal Aviation Administration has suspended a local pilot from being able to perform checkrides with other pilots while investigators continue to look into the fatal jet crash that killed seven members of a Brentwood church.

www.newschannel5.com

NTSB docket:

NTSB Docket - Docket Management System

data.ntsb.gov

Are the 709 rides starting?

 

[Wardogg]

The DTSB came up with a different probable cause:

I am sorry. There were two full functioning sets of instruments to include 4 ADI’s and two pilots.
The “illusion” mentioned is possible in certain conditions but it always yields a more gradual descending “spiral” often called the ever tightening graveyard spiral. This plane came down at 31,000 FPM and the weather was 1300 (AGL) and visibility 10. There was no corrective action to pull out of a dive. In order to get this jet to fly this profile, it requires deliberate locked intentional full push on the yoke and hold it there. Joe’s sister committed suicide, his niece had just attempted it. Joe was trapped in a cult and his only daughter openly hated him. He had nothing to live for and this was his only way out. He shot Brandon and dove the jet to end the madness. See the HBO series on the ins as both of this religious cult. Joe was a paid piece of meat as Gwen’s “husband asks” and he was trapped in this nightmare, he had already lost everything. NTSB cannot ever look beyond their standard answers and they assign SD when they didn’t take the time to dig for the entire story.

The plane was not “loss of control”
It was in full control the entire time and controls were purely responsive to all inputs. It’s just that the pilot imputed a 60 degree nose down input and the plane gave it to him.
“Loss of control” just means that the controls are not giving you the result that you asked for. This was for sure not a LOC event, and it was no accident. This is murder/suicide and Joe’s only way out.

 

[Wardogg]

Final report is out, Cause: spatial disorientation.

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/103165/pdf

It's kinda old, I don't know if we discussed the fate of this DPE.

FAA suspends examiner who approved pilot in fatal crash into Percy Priest Lake

The Federal Aviation Administration has suspended a local pilot from being able to perform checkrides with other pilots while investigators continue to look into the fatal jet crash that killed seven members of a Brentwood church.

www.newschannel5.com

NTSB docket:

NTSB Docket - Docket Management System

data.ntsb.gov

No CVR? Is that normal on a 501?

 

[Skåning]

He shot Brandon

Any evidence of this?

 

[Wardogg]

Any evidence of this?

Of course not. Not that Ive heard. Dan's a kook.

You would hope the Doc exaining the body would have noticed a large extra hole somewhere. But when you crash at 300 kts there might not be much left to examine.

From the NTSB: According to the autopsy report, the pilot-rated passenger’s death was caused by multiple blunt traumatic injuries and the manner of death was accident. The exam was limited by fragmentation. Toxicology testing detected ethanol in the pilot-rated passenger’s muscle tissue at 0.021 gm/hg and in his kidney tissue at 0.013 gm/hg

 

[ahw01]

No Keith Chapman with a CFI in the database, the plot thickens.

 

[melax]

No Keith Chapman with a CFI in the database, the plot thickens.

You have to scroll to the bottom of the FAA search page results to view multiple results, there is a Terry Keith Chapman, I don't know if it's the same guy but he's a DPE in the same region I suspect that's him. He was soon after the accident cleared of any wrongdoing by the FAA.

FAA probe clears pilot examiner after review of fatal crash into Percy Priest lake

The Federal Aviation Administration has lifted the suspension of a local pilot examiner after a review stemming from the fatal jet crash that killed members of a Brentwood church.

www.newschannel5.com

https://www.zoominfo.com/p/Keith-Chapman/617572736

 

[FlyingAccountant]

The DTSB came up with a different probable cause:

I am sorry. There were two full functioning sets of instruments to include 4 ADI’s and two pilots.
The “illusion” mentioned is possible in certain conditions but it always yields a more gradual descending “spiral” often called the ever tightening graveyard spiral. This plane came down at 31,000 FPM and the weather was 1300 (AGL) and visibility 10. There was no corrective action to pull out of a dive. In order to get this jet to fly this profile, it requires deliberate locked intentional full push on the yoke and hold it there. Joe’s sister committed suicide, his niece had just attempted it. Joe was trapped in a cult and his only daughter openly hated him. He had nothing to live for and this was his only way out. He shot Brandon and dove the jet to end the madness. See the HBO series on the ins as both of this religious cult. Joe was a paid piece of meat as Gwen’s “husband asks” and he was trapped in this nightmare, he had already lost everything. NTSB cannot ever look beyond their standard answers and they assign SD when they didn’t take the time to dig for the entire story.

The plane was not “loss of control”
It was in full control the entire time and controls were purely responsive to all inputs. It’s just that the pilot imputed a 60 degree nose down input and the plane gave it to him.
“Loss of control” just means that the controls are not giving you the result that you asked for. This was for sure not a LOC event, and it was no accident. This is murder/suicide and Joe’s only way out.

A review of radar data from the time the pilot established contact with departure control (about 1054:27) until the time the radar track for the flight ended (1055:05), revealed the airplane made a series of heading changes along with several climbs and descents before it entered a steep, descending left turn. The last radar return indicated the airplane was at an altitude of about 700 ft msl, descending at a rate of about 31,000 fpm, on a heading of 090°.

If you're hell bent on killing yourself after murdering someone, what's with the series of climbs and descents?

It's worth mentioning that the guy that crashed the Amazon 767 did almost the exact same thing and that wasn't intentional.

 

[melax]

No CVR? Is that normal on a 501?

Not required

 

[Wardogg]

If you're hell bent on killing yourself after murdering someone, what's with the series of climbs and descents?

It's worth mentioning that the guy that crashed the Amazon 767 did almost the exact same thing and that wasn't intentional.

Yeah I went back and watched the adsb exchange data and compared it to the NTSB data. Unless they were fighting for control of the airplane, his assertion makes no sense.

 

[ahw01]

FIFY his assertions make no sense.

 

[inigo88]

The DTSB came up with a different probable cause:

I am sorry. There were two full functioning sets of instruments to include 4 ADI’s and two pilots.
The “illusion” mentioned is possible in certain conditions but it always yields a more gradual descending “spiral” often called the ever tightening graveyard spiral. This plane came down at 31,000 FPM and the weather was 1300 (AGL) and visibility 10. There was no corrective action to pull out of a dive. In order to get this jet to fly this profile, it requires deliberate locked intentional full push on the yoke and hold it there. Joe’s sister committed suicide, his niece had just attempted it. Joe was trapped in a cult and his only daughter openly hated him. He had nothing to live for and this was his only way out. He shot Brandon and dove the jet to end the madness. See the HBO series on the ins as both of this religious cult. Joe was a paid piece of meat as Gwen’s “husband asks” and he was trapped in this nightmare, he had already lost everything. NTSB cannot ever look beyond their standard answers and they assign SD when they didn’t take the time to dig for the entire story.

The plane was not “loss of control”
It was in full control the entire time and controls were purely responsive to all inputs. It’s just that the pilot imputed a 60 degree nose down input and the plane gave it to him.
“Loss of control” just means that the controls are not giving you the result that you asked for. This was for sure not a LOC event, and it was no accident. This is murder/suicide and Joe’s only way out.

I don’t know anything about this incident, but that assessment reads like an episode of Tiger King.