jgheggie
Well-Known Member
Agreed. It wouldn’t shock me to see salaries climb substantially more in the next few years. Especially considering almost every airline has some sort of “cadet” program with bonuses currently.
1500hrs quantity<quality
- Thread starter jgheggie
- Start date
Because they were taking anyone that could check the box before. It's a different box which SHOULD be safer.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
I get that, but Marvin stalled and spun a perfectly good airplane with well past 1.5K hours.
People crash airplanes either because they're a bad stick, or a bad apple. A bad stick can benefit from experience, a bad apple just sees their poor attitude reinforced with it. I'd be worried that more bad apples are progressing because of this, but I defer to those of you who train/fly with FNGs.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
I'm not intrinsically a fan of the 1500 hour rule because it tacked a couple of years onto my career path.
But if I'm honest with myself, at least in my case, it was probably a very good idea. I've been lucky enough to get a little bit of time in a light-ish turboprop and I can honestly say that if I'd gone right-seat to a jet at some of the "old" minimums, I would have been a liability.
The extra few years have made a difference, and I'm not only a vastly better pilot than I was then, I'm a much more confident pilot - both in my abilities and my confidence to learn additional aviation-things. I didn't realize how much that mattered until I realized it.
<shrug> One little bit of anec-data. I hope to be a valuable member of a crew at some point in the future, in whatever form that takes.
But if I'm honest with myself, at least in my case, it was probably a very good idea. I've been lucky enough to get a little bit of time in a light-ish turboprop and I can honestly say that if I'd gone right-seat to a jet at some of the "old" minimums, I would have been a liability.
The extra few years have made a difference, and I'm not only a vastly better pilot than I was then, I'm a much more confident pilot - both in my abilities and my confidence to learn additional aviation-things. I didn't realize how much that mattered until I realized it.
<shrug> One little bit of anec-data. I hope to be a valuable member of a crew at some point in the future, in whatever form that takes.
It's an interesting take that more time will allow less qualified to get hired. I don't quite understand that logic so I can't argue against it.
At the end of the day if you are on this website, wanting a career in aviation, and asking what is the best quality time you can build I'm not worried. It's those that want the absolute minimum requirements and are struggling to make the QOL sacrifice to achieve them in a reasonable amount a time, well I'm not sure this profession is the right path. Of those of us lucky enough to make it to where we wanted to be, very few were without siginicant speed bumbs along the way that it would just have been very easy to pack it in.
Not everyone is 26 and then gets hired at a legacy.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
That makes sense - and its the same reason people prefer college graduates when a degree doesn't seem directly applicable to the job - because you had to work to complete it.
The truth is probably that the 1500 hour rule both lets in some who wouldn't have cut it, and deters some who shouldn't have. Hopefully more the latter than the prior.
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
The flight time I found most beneficial before i got hired by an airline besides CFI time (which I have zero) was when I took a plane out to fly cross-country under IFR and having to deal with weather. I got a lot of out that.
At my first regional airline, I talked with a new hire class that just got hired all with 200-250ish hrs and wet commercial multi-instrument certificates. There was one unforunate pilot who had just turned 18. Everyone in the newhire class had the seniority to bid for upgrade as soon as they finished new hire training. So he was unfortunate having two strikes against him upgrading. Everyone else just had to get 1500hrs. Once pilots got their 1500hrs (about a year of flying the line) they were awarded upgrade whether they wanted to upgrade or not. (There were very few who didn't want to upgrade) He had to wait until he turned 23 in 5 years before he could upgrade.
At my first regional airline, I talked with a new hire class that just got hired all with 200-250ish hrs and wet commercial multi-instrument certificates. There was one unforunate pilot who had just turned 18. Everyone in the newhire class had the seniority to bid for upgrade as soon as they finished new hire training. So he was unfortunate having two strikes against him upgrading. Everyone else just had to get 1500hrs. Once pilots got their 1500hrs (about a year of flying the line) they were awarded upgrade whether they wanted to upgrade or not. (There were very few who didn't want to upgrade) He had to wait until he turned 23 in 5 years before he could upgrade.
Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
Weather calls at the Regional level were intriguing when I was there.
Flying into HOU during TS Beta last year.
Me: Man that radar looks pretty full on our arrival route. Looks like some heavy stuff up ahead.
Capt: Well everyone in front of us is getting through ok.
Me: What if we are the first one to not "get through ok?"
Capt .......
Me: ........
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
1,200 hours of natural selection
flybywp
Well-Known Member
Can't speak for all regionals but I know mine doesn't just hire anyone who can check a box. We do care where they built their time at. The ones who built their time flying around VFR in the pattern for 1500 hours will still get a call, but they'll have to prove themselves in the interview and then in the simulator, just like every other applicant. Someone with a poor background or excessive checkride failures isn't going to get the call. Our classes haven't always been full for that reason. The company isn't going to invest thousands of dollars in an applicant if they don't believe they can succeed.
CFIs who spent over 1200 hours keeping themselves and their students in controlled phases of flight and out of dangerous situations have a lot more experience than the 250 hour commercial pilots of the past. After spending hundreds of hours teaching students maneuvers in a single piston at low altitudes, and how to land, you simply have a better handle on flying the plane. Mistakes are made and you learn from them. There were quite a few instructors I knew who were weeded out either by realizing it wasn't for them, by the company employing them, or with a few blemishes winding up on their record. 1500 hours is a long time and takes reasonably at least a year and a half to accomplish. A lot can happen and a lot is learned during that time period. We never stop learning but those first hundreds of hours gaining a high level of respect for how an airplane behaves in different flight regimes produces a better pilot. As a CFI building hours, you are as much of a student of the profession as the one you are teaching, just at a higher level.
Of course there will always be a few who slip through the cracks or where the system fails them, that's true of any industry. I think the 1500 hour rule has made commercial aviation incredibly safer than it already was, particularly at the regional level. And the results speak for themselves.
JordanD
Chinese Food Enthusiast
These threads always end up being CFIs and those that aren’t at the airlines critiquing the rule. I was one of them as a wet commercial pilot who just missed out in 2012, and now that I’ve been here, I’m immensely grateful for this rule. For one, there’s no way I’d be making the money I am without it and two, you don’t know what experience means until you… experience it. Even getting ready for my interview at my current airline, I still had a lot of good “tell me about a time” stories from my <1,500 time building flying all over the country, fortunately without any people in the back to scare other than myself. Some of the flying and decision making was way more difficult and higher stakes safety wise than a typical 121 day even, stuff you aren’t going to get if all your experience was “I got a wet commercial and immediately flew 121.” Sure, Renslow had a tower of experience higher than 1,500 hours, but that tower is no good with a shaky, crumbling foundation.
JordanD
Chinese Food Enthusiast
All the people with 1,500 who were “weak but suddenly qualified” that people cite regularly got weeded out almost immediately in training at my last job.
GypsyPilot
Mohawk Town
AdmiralCloudberg is awesome. I really enjoy his analyses, and agree he seems to find a lot of unique accidents to cover.
Don't mean to hijack the thread but the premise of it is interesting to discuss. What about after reaching 1500 hours and working for several years as an ATP? For those looking to make the next step in their career, whether to a major airline or maybe a dream corporate flight department, what constitutes quality of time versus just checking boxes? And if one feels like they can use the details of their experience to offset potentially lower hours compared to other applicants, what would be the best way to present this?
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
I like the idea of the rule but think it could have been modified to reward what we historically called quality time
Keep the 1500, but add multipliers. 2x for jet PIC, 1.5x for muti-engine turboprop PIC, 1.25x for multi-engine PIC. Something like this would reward quality PIC time and devalue weak SIC time.
Keep the 1500, but add multipliers. 2x for jet PIC, 1.5x for muti-engine turboprop PIC, 1.25x for multi-engine PIC. Something like this would reward quality PIC time and devalue weak SIC time.
jgheggie
Well-Known Member
I hear you. A solid foundation of knowledge is key to any successful career. Not just aviation. I’m fine with the rule. I brought this up simply to see if anyone has real knowledge as to how the airlines view time. I am in a position to build time utilizing several different options. Personally, it would bore me to death to fly my own airplane around in circles for over 1000 hours. But it would also bore me to death to fly sky divers for 1000 hours, or a pipeline route for 1000 hours. The common denominator is “repetitive” flying. For me, I would rather mix and match during the time building process. I feel that would lead to becoming a more well rounded pilot. This goes for instructing as well… I personally believe an instructed who has 1000 dual giving and 500 as a survey pilot is better off than a CFI with just the 1500 dual given. That of course is hypothetical and assuming neither pilot has other glaring issues. Each experience will always be different one way or another. But as someone said up too… the best thing a time builder (or any professional for that matter) can do is to challenge their weaknesses. Exit the comfort zone and improve on areas of concern.
jgheggie
Well-Known Member
That would definitely make some better pilots. Or better yet… how about we allow airlines to hire at 1000 total time and give the new hire 500 hours of sim time? As someone who believes in training perishable skills, I would support that if the airlines bought in. 500 hours in a sim CONSTANTLY training emergency operations?? You cannot tell me that is less valuable than buzzing a 150 around with a student pilot for 500 hours or dual given.
JordanD
Chinese Food Enthusiast
That phase of time building is definitely when you want to get diverse experience, but I don’t want to say “you kids need to just do this!” because I don’t really know what the time building jobs are like these days. I instructed for a few hundred hours, it honestly wasn’t my cup of tea and I left to fly survey (and feel I gained a lot of valuable experience) but I don’t regret instructing for one bit, just a different type of experience and it definitely helped when I upgraded and was flying with brand new FOs off of IOE flying their first jet. It was a long, tough road, but the amount of stories and lessons learned was invaluable. I’m definitely glad I have plenty of “tell me about…” stories from those days that are still relevant now.
fholbert
Mod's - Please don't edit my posts!
Then this twin engine jet guy would trump your King Air time.
A guy at my airport has one of those little jets on a glider.
