Twin or Single

[milleR]

I don't follow. It costs a lot more to operate a King Air over a single piston. I just don't buy the mx costs alone are anywhere near comparable. Otherwise no one would own a Mooney or Bonanza.

@ppragman, Thanks for the input. Funny you mention a King Air. I have access to a B200 for the cost of fuel, but when the thing burns 80gal/hr, that's a bit of a deterrent. I never thought about a twin before until the twin market started dropping out on them.


I agree 110%.

 

[wheelsup]

Ah ok, yeah if all you are paying for is fuel. No idea what that thing burns an hour, guessing around 100 gph? That's $400-$500/hr on the low side. I'd think a piston single, adjusted for speed, would still be cheaper even paying for it all.

 

[milleR]

Ah ok, yeah if all you are paying for is fuel. No idea what that thing burns an hour, guessing around 100 gph? That's $400-$500/hr on the low side. I'd think a piston single, adjusted for speed, would still be cheaper even paying for it all.

You got the poor guy on ignore??

@ppragman, Thanks for the input. Funny you mention a King Air. I have access to a B200 for the cost of fuel, but when the thing burns 80gal/hr, that's a bit of a deterrent. I never thought about a twin before until the twin market started dropping out on them.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Ah ok, yeah if all you are paying for is fuel. No idea what that thing burns an hour, guessing around 100 gph? That's $400-$500/hr on the low side. I'd think a piston single, adjusted for speed, would still be cheaper even paying for it all.

All-in operating costs on a King Air, flying about 100 hours per year, would be around $800/hr. That includes hangar, insurance, engine reserves, everything.

 

[wheelsup]

You got the poor guy on ignore??

I did see that but it sounded low. Is that cruise burn only or does it include the entire flight? It just sounds really low to be honest for twin turbines.

 

[milleR]

I did see that but it sounded low. Is that cruise burn only or does it include the entire flight? It just sounds really low to be honest for twin turbines.

Cruise. Climb is probably closer to 110-120 and descent is probably around 60 so an average of 80 I'd guess is pretty close. I can get my Garretts down to 65gal/hour up in mid-20's.

 

[wheelsup]

Cruise. Climb is probably closer to 110-120 and descent is probably around 60 so an average of 80 I'd guess is pretty close. I can get my Garretts down to 65gal/hour up in mid-20's.

I guess it would depend on how long the flights are, shorter flights = higher fuel burns. Still lower than I thought the average would be.

 

[Flyinthrew]

Cruise. Climb is probably closer to 110-120 and descent is probably around 60 so an average of 80 I'd guess is pretty close. I can get my Garretts down to 65gal/hour up in mid-20's.

What kind of TAS does that buy you? That's pretty low. Like 3 pounds a minute per side. But then, the fact that my brain thinks in pounds per minute means that I'm easily impressed by low-ish fuel burn.

And on the topic of jet fuel discounting...So I see what Jet A is at the pump. What kind of discount structure is there? Do you have to run some serious volume to get a couple cents knocked off, or is it more meaningful?

 

[milleR]

What kind of TAS does that buy you? That's pretty low. Like 3 pounds a minute per side. But then, the fact that my brain thinks in pounds per minute means that I'm easily impressed by low-ish fuel burn.

And on the topic of jet fuel discounting...So I see what Jet A is at the pump. What kind of discount structure is there? Do you have to run some serious volume to get a couple cents knocked off, or is it more meaningful?

Pretty slow, 265-270 true. If it’s below ISA I might see 280 but it has to be pretty cold. 500-550 pph (80gph) is needed to net the real speeds at those altitudes and if I want to break 300 TAS I really need high teens, cold temps and about 100gph/700pph.

It depends on the program and the FBO and can range from meaningless to a couple bucks a gallon.

 

[Flyinthrew]

Pretty slow, 265-270 true. If it’s below ISA I might see 280 but it has to be pretty cold. 500-550 pph (80gph) is needed to net the real speeds at those altitudes and if I want to break 300 TAS I really need high teens, cold temps and about 100gph/700pph.

It depends on the program and the FBO and can range from meaningless to a couple bucks a gallon.

That's a pretty steep slope in pph for 30 knots. I can see how the turbine would be attractive over the cabin class piston even at what sounds like a staggering fuel burn, though.

What that means for EIR is that he really just needs to go to the Pilatus. Final answer.

 

[milleR]

That's a pretty steep slope in pph for 30 knots. I can see how the turbine would be attractive over the cabin class piston even at what sounds like a staggering fuel burn, though.

What that means for EIR is that he really just needs to go to the Pilatus. Final answer.

Physics shenanigans about drag exponentially increasing with velocity bs I think. It’s also damn near physically impossible to fly at 265 when you know you could be doing 290. It actually hurts, true story.

2 people and a dog? TBM baby, if you need a single that is.

 

[EIR]

Keep in mind on the King Air, though, you can get gas for about half the price you can get Jet A in most places. You just need to join the fuel discount programs. I've run the numbers on a King Air or an MU-2, and it would basically be break even for me compared to my 421.

I'm sure you're aware, but there are easily a half dozen or more contract fuel companies that provide Jet A pricing well below listed retail.

@EIR if you're budget is $100K you could fly the King Air for 278 hours with fuel at $4.50/gal. I don't know where you're located, but I've seen Jet A down below $3/gal in the midwest. Theoretically, that should be worth close to 500 hours of piston time bouncing along at 165 KTAS.

My operation is a CAA dealer, so as of today, our Jet A is $3.12. However, you're talking 1 year in the king air. I'd like to continue flying for the foreseeable future and not pay 100k/year.

I don't follow. It costs a lot more to operate a King Air over a single piston. I just don't buy the mx costs alone are anywhere near comparable. Otherwise no one would own a Mooney or Bonanza.

They mentioned that because I do have access to a B200 for fuel costs. But that isn't very realistic unless I won the lottery.

 

[EIR]

2 people and a dog? TBM baby, if you need a single that is.

I'll go 1/8 share with you.

 

[milleR]

My operation is a CAA dealer, so as of today, our Jet A is $3.12. However, you're talking 1 year in the king air. I'd like to continue flying for the foreseeable future and not pay 100k/year.

They mentioned that because I do have access to a B200 for fuel costs. But that isn't very realistic unless I won the lottery.

Gotcha. I had it in my head for some reason you were planning 100-150 hours per year.

I still say 310, but maybe a 55 Baron should be in the running.

Or ... E model Mooney? Wonderful plane for just the wife and a dog.

 

[bucksmith]

Gotcha. I had it in my head for some reason you were planning 100-150 hours per year.

I still say 310, but maybe a 55 Baron should be in the running.

Or ... E model Mooney? Wonderful plane for just the wife and a dog.

I was actually wondering why the 310 was the choice of a twin. Hard to argue against a clean 55 baron with a descent panel. You could even take the third row out and save some money on insurance. The 310 carries more, but the Baron burns less fuel and goes the same speed, plus it'll probably be 15 years newer.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Ugh. Baron cabins are tiny. There’s so much more room in a 310.

 

[bucksmith]

Ugh. Baron cabins are tiny. There’s so much more room in a 310.

It aint like you're getting up to go for a walk in either one, not even close to something like the bigger twin Cessna's. Didn't the OP mention two people plus a dog?

 

[bimmerphile]

Ugh. Baron cabins are tiny. There’s so much more room in a 310.

Isn't it just a bonanza cabin?
The 310 is super roomy. Easily the most comfortable GA airplane I've ever flown, if you get one with decently upholstered seats

 

[trafficinsight]

Ugh. Baron cabins are tiny. There’s so much more room in a 310.

Isn't it just a bonanza cabin?
The 310 is super roomy. Easily the most comfortable GA airplane I've ever flown, if you get one with decently upholstered seats

I don't remember what the 310 was like but the Bonanza and Baron have probably the most comfortable sitting position of any airplane I've flown, it's like an easy chair

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

It aint like you're getting up to go for a walk in either one, not even close to something like the bigger twin Cessna's. Didn't the OP mention two people plus a dog?

Two people plus a dog sounds awful cramped to me.