New Alaska/Virgin pilot mins

jtrain609 said:
I love to complain. Love love love love love to complain.

But 12 year captain at Delta on the 717 is $239, and 12 year captain at Alaska is $251, and it'll be $258 in a few months on the 737 and A320. It outpaces the A320 rates by $2 and misses the 737 rates by $7.

I know blended rates can suck, but it's something to work on in the next contract.
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*cough* rhymes with moffit schmairing *cough*

Here's the rates starting 2018:

Screen Shot 2017-11-27 at 1355.18.png


Screen Shot 2017-11-27 at 1356.18.png
 
Their argument for arbitration was a blended rate one and it apparently scored well. Fact remains the Delta 717 pay is lower, the MD88/90 12th year rate is deadon at 258/hr in 2018, and Delta's 12yr CA 320 is 2% higher than AS and 737 is 5-6% higher. Obviously more would have been better but it was binding arbitration and it is what it is. As jtrain pointed out, there are far more important things than just the hourly rate. Scope and work rules make or break a pilot's career and QOL.

As for the comment that Delta and Alaska have significantly less than 12 yr CAs, it's true at Delta but not so much at Alaska. They had a little spree of 2012 guys upgrading but now it's back to 2007 (or earlier) guys upgrading. Yes there was a lack of hiring largely from 2008-2011 (total like 15 hired) and upgrade time 'should' drop down a bit afterwards. Based on current fleet numbers and plan, anyone coming to AS today better be ready for a minimum 6-8+ yrs as FO. If hypothetically they were to grow the mainline fleet by 50 aircraft over the next 5 years then that helps the current guys on property. If you're yet to be hired, all that gets you is a line holding FO schedule. Alaska has always had some of the longest upgrade times historically.
 
Derg said:
Higher or lower percentages of gross based on corporate performance. 20-ish percent or something like that? You'd have to ask @ClarkGriswold as he's newer and still reads stuff.
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Sorry, I meant the pay rates.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't care about profit sharing. It's awesome when your employer has a good year and you're able to pay for a new Tesla in cash from the profit sharing, but it's no guarantee of future success. In my mind, negotiators investing heavily in profit sharing as a significant portion of the income a pilot derives from a CBA is no different than the negotiators putting the CBA on black in Vegas and hoping it all works out. (EDIT: You know what, that's actually too generous. It's more like putting the CBA on a hard 12 bet and hoping those boxcars hit.)

It's real money, but it's also not guaranteed, and the economy is due for a correction. When that correction happens, legacy carriers are going to shrink their lists from the top from retirements, LCC's will stop growing and hiring, and it'll be almost impossible to get a job at Spirit (again). I want my dollars guaranteed through a good scope clause in that case, and I want my dollars to be calculated based on work rules that aren't going to allow the company to raise average line value to 99 hours a month for every line holder.
 
I think it's a particular percentage higher each year of the contract. 3% maybe? I don't remember.

But if you're comparing Alaska 737 rates to Delta 717 rates, you've got to look at the whole enchilada, not just APC.
 
I largely agree, much rather have an override of 12-13% to the payrates rather than hope that a year will pay out somewhere between 10-18% in profit share. Profit share is nice when there are profits. Do you know the net "profit" the industry has made since it started? Hint: it's red
 
I completely get comparing pay rates and stuff but sometimes a little reality check can be a good thing.

We make assloads of money for not much work. Regardless of which legacy you work for. A 6-8 year upgrade puts most guys making a quarter mil a year in their late 30's.

Enjoy life and stop measuring the other guys schlong. It's unbecoming.
 
jtrain609 said:
Sorry, I meant the pay rates.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't care about profit sharing. It's awesome when your employer has a good year and you're able to pay for a new Tesla in cash from the profit sharing, but it's no guarantee of future success. In my mind, negotiators investing heavily in profit sharing as a significant portion of the income a pilot derives from a CBA is no different than the negotiators putting the CBA on black in Vegas and hoping it all works out. (EDIT: You know what, that's actually too generous. It's more like putting the CBA on a hard 12 bet and hoping those boxcars hit.)

It's real money, but it's also not guaranteed, and the economy is due for a correction. When that correction happens, legacy carriers are going to shrink their lists from the top from retirements, LCC's will stop growing and hiring, and it'll be almost impossible to get a job at Spirit (again). I want my dollars guaranteed through a good scope clause in that case, and I want my dollars to be calculated based on work rules that aren't going to allow the company to raise average line value to 99 hours a month for every line holder.
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That’s precisely why I liked that we got an 8% pay raise in exchange for 33% less profit sharing. Our PS has only been significant the last 2 years.
 
wheelsup said:
I completely get comparing pay rates and stuff but sometimes a little reality check can be a good thing.

We make assloads of money for not much work. Regardless of which legacy you work for. A 6-8 year upgrade puts most guys making a quarter mil a year in their late 30's.

Enjoy life and stop measuring the other guys schlong. It's unbecoming.
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I'm not sure you understand how pattern bargaining works. If it wasn't for decades of "schlong measuring," you'd be getting paid peanuts.
 
jtrain609 said:
Sorry, I meant the pay rates.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't care about profit sharing. It's awesome when your employer has a good year and you're able to pay for a new Tesla in cash from the profit sharing, but it's no guarantee of future success. In my mind, negotiators investing heavily in profit sharing as a significant portion of the income a pilot derives from a CBA is no different than the negotiators putting the CBA on black in Vegas and hoping it all works out. (EDIT: You know what, that's actually too generous. It's more like putting the CBA on a hard 12 bet and hoping those boxcars hit.)

It's real money, but it's also not guaranteed, and the economy is due for a correction. When that correction happens, legacy carriers are going to shrink their lists from the top from retirements, LCC's will stop growing and hiring, and it'll be almost impossible to get a job at Spirit (again). I want my dollars guaranteed through a good scope clause in that case, and I want my dollars to be calculated based on work rules that aren't going to allow the company to raise average line value to 99 hours a month for every line holder.
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Truth. Profit sharing is how management convinces labor to shoulder their risk while giving labor none of the decision making power that leads to failure or success.
 
jtrain609 said:
Sorry, I meant the pay rates.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't care about profit sharing. It's awesome when your employer has a good year and you're able to pay for a new Tesla in cash from the profit sharing, but it's no guarantee of future success. In my mind, negotiators investing heavily in profit sharing as a significant portion of the income a pilot derives from a CBA is no different than the negotiators putting the CBA on black in Vegas and hoping it all works out. (EDIT: You know what, that's actually too generous. It's more like putting the CBA on a hard 12 bet and hoping those boxcars hit.)

It's real money, but it's also not guaranteed, and the economy is due for a correction. When that correction happens, legacy carriers are going to shrink their lists from the top from retirements, LCC's will stop growing and hiring, and it'll be almost impossible to get a job at Spirit (again). I want my dollars guaranteed through a good scope clause in that case, and I want my dollars to be calculated based on work rules that aren't going to allow the company to raise average line value to 99 hours a month for every line holder.
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Profit sharing will be fought for tooth and nail like it has been, this last contract was pretty loud and clear "auto no" if changed. Most people are of the mind set that if the company wants to keep up with the JVs and codeshares it's the only way we really benefit from those partnerships individually. So I feel the majority will just keep pushing for pay raises and keeping profit sharing. Hate to say it but I am sure you tune would change if you got the ones being paid out...
 
jtrain609 said:
I want my dollars guaranteed through a good scope clause in that case, and I want my dollars to be calculated based on work rules that aren't going to allow the company to raise average line value to 99 hours a month for every line holder.
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What's jetBlue's scope clause?
 
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